An Fear Rua - Happy 60th Birthday Israel

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 13:34

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God Bless you

myboyblue

(890 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 13:46

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Speaking on behalf of Israel I thank you, now where is my present you tightwad baxtard?

This message has been edited - 08-may-2008 @ 13:46

mickee321

(16 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 13:51

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ש.ל.ו.ם. ש.ל.ו.ם. מ.ת.ל. א.ב.י.ב.

hello from tel aviv
great day here in the sun

ill relay your best wishes to all here peter, any particular reason as to why u are offering us your blessing??

Micko Mc

(1,297 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 13:53

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Happy Birthday indeed.

A true tale of a people who rightfully took their land back from foreign invaders.

Maybe the same will eventually happen in NI too Peter.

Doris Day

(17 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 13:56

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What a country, a template for all modern democracies. Surrounded by terrorism yet the indelible will of her people carry her through all the tough times.
As a proud Judaic-Christian myself I look forward to the day when the Jewish people own all of the holy land promised to them in the good book.

Our own government should have taken lessons from them in how to deal with attempts at ethnic cleansing too but that’s for another day, today is Israel’s day. Am proud to say I have been there and rejoiced.

scalder

(3,637 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:02

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I agree Dorris we should take a leaf from their book and roll back the ethic cleansing of the North East that took place at time of the Ulster plantations, we have a far better claim to this land than the Jews did in the middle east. Proof that small nations need a robust defence capability if they are to deal with more populous aggressive neighbours!

BLUE TOO

(471 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:06

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Isarel only exists because of the military money that the US pumps into it.

Palestine has as much right to be in existance as it country.

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:14

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Originally posted by scalder:
I agree Dorris we should take a leaf from their book and roll back the ethic cleansing of the North East that took place at time of the Ulster plantations, we have a far better claim to this land than the Jews did in the middle east. Proof that small nations need a robust defence capability if they are to deal with more populous aggressive neighbours!

I think you`ll find that it was the people who claim to be the true Gaelic Irish that were the invaders, a mish mash people. Scotland was colonised by people from Ulster in the 4th Century who in turn re-colonised in the 16th and 17th Century

Various celtc peoples became the dominant caste in different parts of Britain and Ireland. However the majority of the population in Scotland and Ireland remained the Pretani. Those of Pretani stock in Scotland are usually called "Picts", while those in Ireland came to be labelled "Cruthin". In Ulster the celtc Ulaid from Britain became an elite class. However, Ulster was sometimes still ruled by a Cruthinic king, either with the consent of the Ulaid, or through force. Generally, the two peoples united as Ulidians when faced with a common enemy, the Gaels.

The oldest story in Western European literature tells of an attack on Ulster by the combined armies of the other kingdoms on the island. Based at the court of the King of Ulster at Navan Fort were the Red Branch Knights. The tales of their prowess and chivalry often seem to have been directly plagiarised by the authors of the tales of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round table . The most fearsome of Ulster`s Knights was Cuchulaian (Setanta ) who was of ancient British stock. His exploits fighting "the men of Ireland" are certainly at least exaggerated, but Ulster did fight wars to preserve her independence from Southern aggressors. There are great "Walls of Ulster", such as the Dorsey in south Armagh, identified by archaeologists, which were used as fortifications against such attacks.

In the centuries after Christ, Ulster`s Kings tended to rule over not just the territory of present-day Northern Ireland, but also counties Donegal, Louth and Monaghan. There were also tribal kings subservient to the King at Navan. Shifts in borders and allegiances were not infrequent but there tended to be four other kingdoms on the island - Munster, Leinster, Meath and Connaught, making five "fifths" in all. There is no evidence that anyone claimed the right to rule the whole island before the fifth century, and "high-kings" tended to be monarchs of one kingdom who hoped to subdue the others militarily. Few had substantial success.

Ulster was continually under pressure from Gaelic tribes. The Cruthin and Ulaid forces were driven from Donegal and the citadel at Navan was destroyed around 450 A.D. South and west of the River Bann a tribe called the Airgialla took control as the Ulstermen retreated eastwards into Antrim and Down. Even here the Gaelic language was finally absorbed. The slow destruction of non-Gaelic power led many to leave for Scotland, particularly in the sixth century. The Romans named those coming from Ireland the "Scotti", from whence Scotland was named. Fergus Mac Ere stretched his Kingdom of Dalriada from North Antrim to Scotland around 500 A.D. Scotland`s kings and queens and thus the British monarchy are descended from him. The Gaelic O`Neills set up a Northern Kingdom based on Donegal, and a Southern Kingdom around Meath. They crushed the Cruthin at Moneymore in 563. Although Northern O`Neill kings were slain in 565 and 628, Ulster`s resistance to the Gaels received a near mortal blow at Moira in 637, and Dalriada lost its lands in Ulster after siding with the vanquished.

Over the centuries Ulster people became the dominant population in the Galloway and Ayrshire area of Scotland. To the native Britons they were "Creenies", which derives from Cruthin. to the English at the battle of the Standard in 1138 they were "Irish". The Ulster-Scottish kingdom of Dalriada continued until the close of the eighth century. Airgiallans migrated into the Hebrides and Argyll (e.g. the Campbells ) , while Hebridean soldiers or gallowglasses (e.g. the Gallaghers ) immigrated back to Ulster from the 13th to the 16th century. There was a constant coming and going between Ulster and western Scotland. The Glens of Antrim were in the hands of Scottish MacDonalds by 1400, and for the next hundred years Scots came in large numbers. The 17th century immigration of a numerous Scots element need not be considered outside the preceding series, and the continuing movements to and fro since then have served to emphasise the essential ancient Britishness of the Ulster homeland. It also serves to show that the Gaelic Irish, who today claim to be the true Irish and rightful heirs to the land, were nothing other than yet another wave of invaders.

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:18

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Originally posted by Doris Day:
What a country, a template for all modern democracies. Surrounded by terrorism yet the indelible will of her people carry her through all the tough times.
As a proud Judaic-Christian myself I look forward to the day when the Jewish people own all of the holy land promised to them in the good book.

Our own government should have taken lessons from them in how to deal with attempts at ethnic cleansing too but that’s for another day, today is Israel’s day. Am proud to say I have been there and rejoiced.

The republican re-writing of history constantly amazes me.

Historically there has never been an independent, united state on the geographical island of `Ireland`. there is no historical precedent for Irish nationalist / republican demands for a united Ireland. It has never existed and does not exist today.

Ulster has always been culturally separate and distinct from the rest of the island. Ulidia, from where the name Ulster derives, existed long before an Irish nation came into being. In reality, the Irish perception of themselves as a nation only emerged into the Irish psyche in the 19th century with the fusion of Catholic emancipation and Gaelic nationalism under Daniel O` Connell.

Ulidia had it`s own capital - Emain Macha, kings and border (the Black Pigs Dyke ) in ancient times. The people were the ancient Cruthin and Ulaid - as recorded by a Greek geographer in the 2nd century A.D. This nation came under attack from Gaelic lead peoples from Ireland. The semi historical / mythical Tain describes this period telling how Ulster people came under attack by peoples from the south in a cattle raid and how Ulster was defended by her ancient hero - Setanta.

Welger AP630

(2,507 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:21

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Happy Birthday indeed...

I choose to blame the Brits on this one, every where thay went they left two peoples after them pucking the crap out of each other. This one has about lasted the longest. Happy Birthday indeed.

Ozzy

(1,867 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:23

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Fairly decent WUM, Pete, you hardly had to say anything to throw the ball in. I don`t know what hardcore WUMers like yourself get out of it, but this is a top-notch effort.

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:28

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[img src="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/Congal_2006/BlackPigsDyke.jpg"]

That is the end of todays history lesson.

This message has been edited - 08-may-2008 @ 14:29

beaugosse

(637 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:41

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I cant believe yis responded to this post lads. Just ignore idiots like the original poster. Wummers are only looking for attention. If you just ignore them, then their whole aim is thwarted.

scalder

(3,637 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:50

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Two great cut and paste jobs Peter!

http://www.lisburn.com/history/history_lisburn/settlement_of_ulster.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/ulster_explained/history.htm

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 14:55

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Originally posted by scalder:
Two great cut and paste jobs Peter!

http://www.lisburn.com/history/history_lisburn/settlement_of_ulster.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/ulster_explained/history.htm

That is neither here nor there, The information is freely available to anyone who wants to research it. Not everyone swallows the republican propoganda

Your waffle about Ulster being taken from it "rightful" owners has been shown up for what it is, waffle.

scalder

(3,637 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:03

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Why didn’t you reference your post then instead of trying to pass it off as your own work??

It’s a weak argument when you’ve to resort to mythology and folklore to support your claims.

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:11

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Mythology? Folklore? Is this what you are reduced to? Your points are have been comprehensively proven to be false and you try to rubbish it by, firstly try to create a pointless smokescreen and then, secondly down play their relevance.

criodain

(785 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:16

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It would be great if they could cut off "Norn Iron" and let it float off up to the north pole..

scalder

(3,637 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:29

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My points have been comprehensively proven to be false?? By your cut and paste efforts at plagiarism?

Your attempt to draw a distinction between the “Gaelic people” and those of Ulster falls down when owing to the shared culture and language of the people on the island a culture which we exported to Scotland as you’ve alluded to. Brehon laws and customs and Gaelige didn’t stop or start at the boundaries of Ulster. The 1317 Remonstrance clearly shows an appreciation of the Irish as a nation at this early juncture. The church organisation in Ireland from the earliest times confirm the national all Ireland outlook, there are diocese and Archdiocese but its ultimate organisation is national. Was Ireland divided politically, yes of course it was with no stronger and bitter divide existing than between Uí Chinsaellagh and Ossory in the south east corner of the island, however they were all Gaels and all had ambitions, just like the O Connors in the west, the McCathys in the South and the O’Neill in the north, of holding the title of Ard Rí na hÉireann.

OneLeggedDancer

(3,520 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:39

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Originally posted by scalder:
My points have been comprehensively proven to be false?? By your cut and paste efforts at plagiarism?

Jesus scalder you make good points and you make them well, but these guys don`t do discussion. All it took was a couple of tweaks on the wheel to guide the thread where they always wanted it to go. Let them talk to each other, they`re only wasting your time.

ilpostino

(1,746 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:44

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peters scottish bretherin

[img src=""]

This message has been edited - 08-may-2008 @ 15:47

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:45

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Some People just do not (or do not want to ) get it! No matter how plainly it is for them to see. I guess you will dismiss this as a fairytale as well no doubt

The Settlement of Ulster

Around 7,000 B.C. settlers crossed the narrow channel between Britain and Ulster to become Ireland`s first inhabitants. Thirty centuries later they were peaceably joined by new settlers from what is now Scotland, who brought agriculture and commerce.

In continental Europe iron-making caused a technological revolution from 800 B.C. onwards. Prominent in the use of this material were the Celts. These were a group of peoples who spoke related languages and had similar beliefs and lifestyles, although they certainly did not regard themselves as one nation. By 700 B.C. the Celts were established in Central Europe north of the Alps. From there they spread to Asia Minor (the "foolish Galatians" ) , Italy, Spain, France and the "Islands of the Pretani" (British Isles ) . From 300 B.C. onwards iron was replacing bronze in Ireland, but archaeology suggests that Celts did not settle on the island in any great numbers until after the time of Christ.

Various celtc peoples became the dominant caste in different parts of Britain and Ireland. However the majority of the population in Scotland and Ireland remained the Pretani. Those of Pretani stock in Scotland are usually called "Picts", while those in Ireland came to be labelled "Cruthin". In Ulster the celtc Ulaid from Britain became an elite class. However, Ulster was sometimes still ruled by a Cruthinic king, either with the consent of the Ulaid, or through force. Generally, the two peoples united as Ulidians when faced with a common enemy, the Gaels.

The oldest story in Western European literature tells of an attack on Ulster by the combined armies of the other kingdoms on the island. Based at the court of the King of Ulster at Navan Fort were the Red Branch Knights. The tales of their prowess and chivalry often seem to have been directly plagiarised by the authors of the tales of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round table . The most fearsome of Ulster`s Knights was Cuchulaian (Setanta ) who was of ancient British stock. His exploits fighting "the men of Ireland" are certainly at least exaggerated, but Ulster did fight wars to preserve her independence from Southern aggressors. There are great "Walls of Ulster", such as the Dorsey in south Armagh, identified by archaeologists, which were used as fortifications against such attacks.

In the centuries after Christ, Ulster`s Kings tended to rule over not just the territory of present-day Northern Ireland, but also counties Donegal, Louth and Monaghan. There were also tribal kings subservient to the King at Navan. Shifts in borders and allegiances were not infrequent but there tended to be four other kingdoms on the island - Munster, Leinster, Meath and Connaught, making five "fifths" in all. There is no evidence that anyone claimed the right to rule the whole island before the fifth century, and "high-kings" tended to be monarchs of one kingdom who hoped to subdue the others militarily. Few had substantial success.

Ulster was continually under pressure from Gaelic tribes. The Cruthin and Ulaid forces were driven from Donegal and the citadel at Navan was destroyed around 450 A.D. South and west of the River Bann a tribe called the Airgialla took control as the Ulstermen retreated eastwards into Antrim and Down. Even here the Gaelic language was finally absorbed. The slow destruction of non-Gaelic power led many to leave for Scotland, particularly in the sixth century. The Romans named those coming from Ireland the "Scotti", from whence Scotland was named. Fergus Mac Ere stretched his Kingdom of Dalriada from North Antrim to Scotland around 500 A.D. Scotland`s kings and queens and thus the British monarchy are descended from him. The Gaelic O`Neills set up a Northern Kingdom based on Donegal, and a Southern Kingdom around Meath. They crushed the Cruthin at Moneymore in 563. Although Northern O`Neill kings were slain in 565 and 628, Ulster`s resistance to the Gaels received a near mortal blow at Moira in 637, and Dalriada lost its lands in Ulster after siding with the vanquished.

Over the centuries Ulster people became the dominant population in the Galloway and Ayrshire area of Scotland. To the native Britons they were "Creenies", which derives from Cruthin. to the English at the battle of the Standard in 1138 they were "Irish". The Ulster-Scottish kingdom of Dalriada continued until the close of the eighth century. Airgiallans migrated into the Hebrides and Argyll (e.g. the Campbells ) , while Hebridean soldiers or gallowglasses (e.g. the Gallaghers ) immigrated back to Ulster from the 13th to the 16th century. There was a constant coming and going between Ulster and western Scotland. The Glens of Antrim were in the hands of Scottish MacDonalds by 1400, and for the next hundred years Scots came in large numbers. The 17th century immigration of a numerous Scots element need not be considered outside the preceding series, and the continuing movements to and fro since then have served to emphasise the essential ancient Britishness of the Ulster homeland. It also serves to show that the Gaelic Irish, who today claim to be the true Irish and rightful heirs to the land, were nothing other than yet another wave of invaders.

Ulster and America
During the last decades of the 17th century and the early years of the 18th century a small but steady stream of Ulster families sailed from Ulster to America. However, in the year 1718 the stream was changed to a mighty torrent. This flow of Ulster emigrants was almost entirely Protestant and mainly Presbyterian. Across the sea they sailed and there in the New World they became the pioneers and frontiersmen of early American life.

There were two main reasons for this emigration. One was religious and the other was economic. During the reigns of Charles II (1660-85 ) and James II (1685-88 ) the Ulster Presbyterians were persecuted for their faith. That persecution reached its peak in 1684 when many Presbyterian churches were forcibly, closed. (In that same year an Ulster emigrant organised the first Presbyterian church in America. ) During the Williamite War the men of Ulster displayed great heroism and loyalty. They played a crucial role at Londonderry, Enniskillen and the Boyne and after the relief of Londonderry in 1689 the Presbyterians were treated more favourably. William III recognised his indebtedness to the Ulstermen but the death of William in 1702 brought this improved position to an end. Queen Anne detested dissenters and during her reign Ulster Presbyterians were harassed and persecuted. They were denied the religious liberty which should have been their right and so in search of freedom they looked towards America. They hoped that they would find there the liberty that they loved. There were also economic factors but primarily those who sailed west were sailing in search of freedom.

The Ulster emigrants, as has already been stated, were mainly Presbyterians and they brought their religion with them. As they established each new settlement they would first build a fort for protection from the Indians and then they would build a church and a school.

The Rev. Francis Makemie emigrated from Ulster and arrived in America in 1683. He organised the first Presbyterian Church in America and became the "Father of American Presbyterianism". It was thus an Ulsterman who started American Presbyterianism and in the years that followed, Ulstermen played a tremendous part in the spread of Presbyterianism in America. Nearly 300 ministers of Ulster extraction served in the ministry of American Presbyterian churches in the period 1680-1820.

In the field of education the Ulster settlers made one of their most important contributions to American life. They founded schools all over the country. One of the most notable was the Log College which was established at Neshaminy in Pennsylvania by William Tennent. This was in fact the forerunner of Princeton University.

In every aspect of American life the Ulster emigrants played a significant role. The first daily newspaper ever issued in America was printed by an Ulsterman, John Dunlap from Strabane, and another Ulsterman Horace Greeley founded the New York Tribune.

But the Ulster contribution was particularly strong in the political field and in the battle for independence and liberty. There the Ulster influence was decisive and the Ulstermen were firmly on the side of independence. Professor James G. Leyburn said of them: "They provided some of the best fighters in the American army. Indeed there were those who held the Scots-Irish responsible for the war itself".

On 2 July 1776 the American Continental Congress voted for independence. Two days later on 4 July it published the Declaration of Independence. Representatives from all the American colonies had come to the congress in Philadelphia and the mood was defiant and confident. This was the most crucial event in American history for it marked the birth of the American nation and Ulstermen were closely associated with it.

The original document is in the handwriting of an Ulsterman, Charles Thompson, who was secretary of the Congress and who was born in Maghera. It was first printed by an Ulsterman, John Dunlap of Strabane. It was first read in public by the son of an Ulsterman, Colonel John Nixon. The first signature on it was that of John Hancock, president of the Congress, whose ancestors came from County Down, and at least seven of the other signatories were of Ulster extraction.

One of the local forerunners of the Declaration was the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence. This was adopted by a convention of Ulstermen which met in North Carolina on 31 May 1775. President William McKinley, himself of Ulster descent, wrote of these men that "they were the first to proclaim for freedom in these United States". Another local declaration was issued by Ulstermen in New Hampshire.

By the Declaration of Independence America was saying NO! to London and to arbitrary power and YES! to liberty and democracy.

Ulstermen played a major role during the American War of Independence which lasted from 1775 to 1783. Twenty-five of the American generals were of Ulster descent as was half of the revolutionary army. One famous force of regular soldiers was the Pennsylvania Line and it was composed almost entirely of Ulstermen and the sons of Ulstermen.

George Washington, commander in chief of the American forces, said of these men: "If defeated everywhere else I will make my last stand for liberty among the Scots-Irish of my native Virginia". This was a testimony to the distinct identity of the Ulstermen and a tribute to their courage and their love for liberty.

The turning point in the war was the Battle of King`s Mountain in South Carolina on 7 October 1780. A body of American militiamen defeated a British force twice its size and took 1,000 prisoners. The five colonels in the American force were all Presbyterian elders of Ulster stock and their men were of the same race and faith.

President Theodore Roosevelt made this comment on the Ulster contribution to the war: "in the Revolutionary war . . . the fiercest and most ardent Americans of all were the Presbyterian Irish settlers and their descendants". He described those Ulstermen as "a grim, stern people, strong and simple, . . . the love of freedom rooted in their very hearts` core".

The Ulster immigrants brought with them from the shores of Ulster a love of freedom and in America`s hour of crisis they fought to defend their freedom. They had travel ed far across the sea but their courage, convictions and commitment were undiminished.

The Scotch-Irish from Ulster became the pioneers and frontiersmen of early America, clearing the forests to make their farms and living in log cabins such as the one depicted above

from http://www.lisburn.com/history/history_lisburn/settlement_of_ulster.htm

Menapian.

(1,498 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:55

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Coincidence (or not ) , Football Lover was a bit of a supporter of Israel too.

http://www.anfearrua.com/db.asp?a=topicdisplay&tid=250081&xpos=35

Either way, someone has too much time on their hands.

AFR doesn`t look too kindly on plagiarism either.

This message has been edited - 08-may-2008 @ 16:02

Peter Robinson

(424 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 15:56

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The celtc Myth

Two leading archaeologists have produced evidence of the origins of the Irish which badly dents the theory of distinct celtc ethnicity which forms an important part of the basis of Irish Nationalism.
Richard Warner, of the Ulster Museum in Belfast, said in an address to the Irish Association for Cultural, Economic and Social Relations that:-

"In round terms, the image of the Irish as a genetically celtc people - in fact the whole idea of a celtc ethnicity and of celtc peoples, Irish, Welsh and all the rest of it - is a load of complete cock and bull. The average Irish person probably has more English genes than celtc."

It was only in the 18th and 19th centuries, Warner said, that the idea of a common celtc origin caught on, acting as a wellspring of Irish Nationalism. Since independence in the 1920s, Irish children have been taught that the Celts or Gaels settled the country and became the predominant racial group in the 5th or 6th century BC.

The evidence of archaeology, Warner argued, is that most Irish people are descended not from Celts but from Mesolithic hunters and fishermen who arrived around 8000 BC, possibly from Scotland. English invaders, he said, exerted the next greatest influence.

The Celts blossomed as a distinct civilisation around the 5th century BC, but although they were a distinct ethnic group within Central Europe they had no significant effect on the Irish gene pool, Warner continued. "If you find celtc blood lines now, it will probably be among the Germans."

After prehistoric settlers, Irish leaders such as Brian Boru (born in AD 941 ) established proper kingdoms. But from about 1170 AD the English began arriving in waves of invasion after Dermot McMurragh, the King of Leinster, invited Richard de Clare, an Anglo-Norman warlord, to help him settle a dynastic dispute. The campaigns of Elizabeth I and Cromwell settled English tenants and former soldiers in Ireland.

In terms of the ability to recognise present DNA values, said Warner, the intrusion of English blood and Southern Scottish would be larger than any other group apart from the original Mesolithic inhabitants.

Professor Jim Mallory, an archaeologist and linguist from Queens University, Belfast, agreed, saying:-

"If you believe the celtc languages spread late in pre-history, they were accompanied by a minimal population movement. There is no evidence in the archaeological record for a large influx of a foreign population."

Even celtc music may be no more than a marketing ploy. According to Tommy Munnelly, chairman of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, "We have no idea what kind of music the Celts played."

Warner believes his case will be proved next year when the Royal Irish Academy completes its genetic map of Ireland. Thousands of DNA samples will be analysed and compared with genes from skeletons found by archaeologists.

According to Warner, whose findings were quoted in a report in The Sunday Times 14th November

"There is a final irony in Ireland`s `celtc` origin. The Aran islands off Galway, whose population is partly descended from a settlement of Cromwell`s soldiers, is one of the last refuges of the Irish language. Aran is going to be the last bastion of spoken Irish, so the Irish language will die in the mouths of the English."

Welger AP630

(2,507 Posts)

Posted: 08-May-2008 16:01

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Originally posted by Peter Robinson:

The Scotch-Irish from Ulster became the pioneers and frontiersmen of early America, clearing the forests to make their farms and living in log cabins such as the one depicted above

It is generally accepted by historians that most of the `clearing` was done by the Indians who had already established communities when the settlers got there. This settlement was facilitated, not by a Cromwell type figure but by the plague of disease and flu that these unsanitary settlers brought with them. That is why most of the American towns and city`s still have Native Indian names (Poughkeepsie etc. ) . It would be great to think of the settlers as having hewn this land from forest and marsh, but the reality was they entered empty villages, decimated by an ethnic cleansing (albeit accidental ) that makes the Holocaust look like Woodstock. The few Indians that were left were so shocked as to believe the settlers to be Gods and they quickly acquiesced.

But then you would have good bed fellows in all of this wouldn’t ya.?

This message has been edited - 08-may-2008 @ 16:08

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