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Topic: The Lisbon Treaty: How will you vote? - Online Poll
An Fear Rua (Editor)	Posted: 13-May-2008 23:42	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
An Fear Rua (Editor)	The Lisbon Treaty: How will you vote? - Online Poll
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 00:04	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Some woman on the radio earlier this evening organising a campaign for a No vote on Lisbon because of the state of our health service. I seriously couldn`t believe what I was hearing. Shoot down an EU Treaty which has absolutely nothing to do with the health service in order to hurt the government. Ruari Quinn was on the show and couldn`t believe what he was hearing. A person texted in later saying that this is democracy at its very worst.
spade caller (3,554 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 00:06	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
spade caller (3,554 Posts)	Originally posted by Micko Mc: Some woman on the radio earlier this evening organising a campaign for a No vote on Lisbon because of the state of our health service. I seriously couldn`t believe what I was hearing. Shoot down an EU Treaty which has absolutely nothing to do with the health service in order to hurt the government. Ruari Quinn was on the show and couldn`t believe what he was hearing. A person texted in later saying that this is democracy at its very worst. unfortunately, this is democracy`s weakness, every gobsheen old enough gets to vote and affect the way we live. i`ve said it before, benevolent dictatorship is the only way to go
artfoley (3,937 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 00:30	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
artfoley (3,937 Posts)	Originally posted by Micko Mc: Some woman on the radio earlier this evening organising a campaign for a No vote on Lisbon because of the state of our health service. I seriously couldn`t believe what I was hearing. Shoot down an EU Treaty which has absolutely nothing to do with the health service in order to hurt the government. Ruari Quinn was on the show and couldn`t believe what he was hearing. A person texted in later saying that this is democracy at its very worst. why so micko ? if you can`t trust the political parties with keeping their election manifestos why would you trust them on europe ?
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 00:37	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Originally posted by artfoley: why so micko ? if you can`t trust the political parties with keeping their election manifestos why would you trust them on europe ? Let me get this straight Art. You don`t trust, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, The Labour Party, The PD`s or the Greens, yet you`ll trust Sinn Fein and The Workers Party on the Lisbon Treaty ? This ploy by this woman is a complete farce and flies in the face of how democracy should work. The vote on the treaty is a vote on the treaty itself. Skewing it like what she wants is completely missing the point.
artfoley (3,937 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 00:58	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
artfoley (3,937 Posts)	Originally posted by Micko Mc: Let me get this straight Art. You don`t trust, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, The Labour Party, The PD`s or the Greens, yet you`ll trust Sinn Fein and The Workers Party on the Lisbon Treaty ? This ploy by this woman is a complete farce and flies in the face of how democracy should work. The vote on the treaty is a vote on the treaty itself. Skewing it like what she wants is completely missing the point. being perfectly honest I don`t trust any political party and besides fianna fail is the most undemocratic party of all remember nice ? the people don`t have enough info to vote on the treaty, the govt has ignored the ruling of the mckenna case all those years ago the whole thing stinks and do you think that the "republican" party should be ceding so easily the sovereignty that great men died to get us ?
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 01:02	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Art. I never said anything re the democracy within Fianna Fail. My point was in regards to a pressure group trying to skew the voting on an important referendum to reflect something it has absolutely nothing to do with.
artfoley (3,937 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 01:05	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
artfoley (3,937 Posts)	Originally posted by Micko Mc: Art. I never said anything re the democracy within Fianna Fail. My point was in regards to a pressure group trying to skew the voting on an important referendum to reflect something it has absolutely nothing to do with. it`s called a protest vote micko and it`s just as important as a spoilt vote I wil, however, say again that the amount of info regarding this treaty is wholly insufficient for people to make an informed choice and therefore people must vote no on that basis alone
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 01:09	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Originally posted by artfoley: it`s called a protest vote micko and it`s just as important as a spoilt vote I wil, however, say again that the amount of info regarding this treaty is wholly insufficient for people to make an informed choice and therefore people must vote no on that basis alone I heard on the radio that the Referendum Commission are sending out booklets next week.
BlackandWhite1976 (3,051 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 04:40	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
BlackandWhite1976 (3,051 Posts)	i have heard arguments over and back between pro and anti across all the media outlets as to how it will affect our neutrality etc and am still none the wiser as to how to vote . To be fair to many of the politicians on both sides they seem to be making well informed arguments- so the question is - if they still can`t agree on which way is best how is a poor joe soap like myself who just reads the booklet informed enough to decide? I would say that the vast majority of voter turnout on the day may have read a newspaper article or heard a few bits on the radio and thats about the extent of it , FF supporters will go out and vote yes because brian says so - no question about that . if you are not sure should you : A ) vote yes B ) vote no C ) stay at home for yourself . i suspect C is the answer
Donnycarney2 (552 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 07:55	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Donnycarney2 (552 Posts)	Originally posted by An Fear Rua: The Lisbon Treaty: How will you vote? - Online Poll I`ll be voting No because I believe the EU is a fundamentally undemocratic entity. Examples of this include: 2001 - Ireland votes No to Nice referendum. October 2002 - "Try again Lads and get it right this time" 2005 - France & Netherlands reject European Constitution by referendum. Now repackaged as the Lisbon reform treaty, the French and Danish electorates aren`t even being asked this time. We`re being asked alright, but it seems the Yes campaign can be distilled into the phrase: "Europe has been good for us, it would be bad manners of not to do what`s expected of us" 2000: Jorg Haider`s Freedom party come to power in a democratic election in Austria. The heads of government of the other fourteen EU members decided to cease cooperation with the Austrian government. A nasty piece of work he may have been, but your either for democracy or you`re agin` it. Edit: Replaced Denmark with Netherlands. I guess I was thinking of the fact that Denmark had rejected the Single European Act in 1986. Guess what happened then? You guessed it - "New referendum, with different result please, Denmark". This message has been edited - 14-may-2008 @ 10:39
Equalizer (470 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 08:56	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Equalizer (470 Posts)	Ireland, turn this one down and I foresee a two tier Europe. Everyone else on Tier 1. Us on Tier 2. Baroso has already said that they have no plan C if this one fails. (This is already plan B ) . This message has been edited - 14-may-2008 @ 08:59
chewfáile (698 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 09:10	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
chewfáile (698 Posts)	Originally posted by Donnycarney2: I`ll be voting No because I believe the EU is a fundamentally undemocratic entity. Examples of this include: 2001 - Ireland votes No to Nice referendum. October 2002 - "Try again Lads and get it right this time" 2005 - France & Denmark reject European Constitution by referendum. Now repackaged as the Lisbon reform treaty, the French and Danish electorates aren`t even being asked this time. We`re being asked alright, but it seems the Yes campaign can be distilled into the phrase: "Europe has been good for us, it would be bad manners of not to do what`s expected of us" 2000: Jorg Haider`s Freedom party come to power in a democratic election in Austria. The heads of government of the other fourteen EU members decided to cease cooperation with the Austrian government. A nasty piece of work he may have been, but your either for democracy or you`re agin` it. Dc2, I hear this Nice referendum thing being thrown up from time to time but I`m not sure how you can think the second vote was undemocratic. It may be true that the government weren`t happy with the outcome of the vote the first time but it was again put to referendum and the people voted on it a second time. What would have been undemocratic would have been if the government decided that they were going to adopt the treaty regardless of the voted outcome. In a similar manner to what is currently happening in France, for example. I think voter apathy will again be the biggest obstacle to a "Yes" vote this time. The "No" campaign will be exercised enough to mobilise a certain core of voters and there may be groupings should as farmers organisations that may come out against it finally. However, I still think the only way that the treaty will not be passed is through a very low poll a la the first vote against Nice, beacuse most people will vote along party lines. The actual ability to make an informed decision on your vote is another matter entirely and the government and EU have a major repsonsibility in this department. However, they can only go so far and people at some stage have to make some sort of effort to inform themsleves as to what the vote is, broadly speaking, about. Unfortunately, even the synopsised versions aren`t clear as best illustrated the other night on Q&A when Pat Carey and Simon Coveney completely contradicted the conclusion a journalist drew from reading the booklet handed out by the European Commission office with regard to Qualified Majority Voting and the use of a veto. The journalist in question (cannot remember her name ) interpreted that as QMV applied to such areas such as agriculture, therefore Ireland would not have veto power in relation to this area. Coveney and Carey said that QMV always applied in this area but that Ireland would still be able to use it`s veto in this area. According to my understanding, areas voted on by QMV and areas that can be vetoed are exclusive but to be honest, it`s not very clear. And this to somebody attempting to make some sort of effort. Lisbon Treaty site for those of you wishing to untangle further.
Abruzzi Spur (1,083 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 09:18	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Abruzzi Spur (1,083 Posts)	Micko I think your being very naïve in the extreme there to say there’s no vested interest in any of these “respectable ” parties pushing for a yes vote. They are all married up to pan popular fronts in Europe like there’s no tomorrow. Can you imagine Enda Kenny having to go back to Angela and tell her we voted No? Or Cowan to Silvio? They are part of the same wheel designed to push Europe into a superstate. Now you either value Irish autonomy and European membership or you don’t? I will be voting No as rejecting this treaty means status quo, we are still in the EU with a veto on most crucial issues. Rejecting this treaty does not change anything, passing it does. When Kevin Myers says the Shinners may be murderers and s****gs but they are not wrong on this issue it tells me something. For what its worth I was always a floating labour/ FG voter, I voted for Brian Meaney in last general election. I’m disgusted with the Labour party’s stance on this.
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 09:26	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	I can`t see anything in the Treaty which has anything bad for us. As I`ve read it, the move to QMV is in no new areas. It allows national governments in the future to move to QMV in certain areas, like Agriculture, but only if all 27 National Governments want to. There is no reason why Ireland will be forced into QMV on Agriculture for instance. Sinn Fein aren`t saying no to this on moral grounds. Like every EU Treaty before it, Sinn Fein are saying no to be different. They got a lot of press out of leading the No vote on the Nice Treaty and expect the same this time around. As I`ve said before we have some interesting groups saying no to this treaty. - (Former ? ) Terrorists - Communists - Extreme Rightists - Libertas - Very wealthy individuals who I think might have something to personally lose with this treaty. Anyways, my original points wasn`t anything about the treaty itself. If people have read documentation about the treaty, don`t like what they see and vote no, then fair enough. Having campaigns organised to get people to vote on the back of the state of the Health service in Roscommon is an afront to democracy itself. I can see it now. The EU Commission find out that we might have voted no on this treaty due to health service issues in Roscommon. WOuld be a national embarrassment. This message has been edited - 14-may-2008 @ 09:33
Abruzzi Spur (1,083 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 09:55	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Abruzzi Spur (1,083 Posts)	People reasoning for a no vote based on a health service is no more dis honest than a government telling us we have a whole lot to lose if we vote no Micko. What changes if we veto this? Nothing-we p1ss Europe off that’s all. Why in the hell should anyone be made to feel guilty for doing this? The reason we have a veto is to USE it. The reason we have a referendum is because of our constitution, a document I’m very proud of. We will be relegating Bunreacht na hEireann if we ratify Lisbon, don’t let anyone tell you different. Your list of who is opposed to the treaty is insulting to ordinary people like me too btw who are vehemently opposed to it on every moral ground conceivable. Taking the old tired Bertie line I see, he is yesterdays man in case you haven’t heard?
GluteusMaximus (344 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:25	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
GluteusMaximus (344 Posts)	Originally posted by Donnycarney2: I`ll be voting No because I believe the EU is a fundamentally undemocratic entity. Examples of this include: 2001 - Ireland votes No to Nice referendum. October 2002 - "Try again Lads and get it right this time" 2005 - France & Denmark reject European Constitution by referendum. Now repackaged as the Lisbon reform treaty, the French and Danish electorates aren`t even being asked this time. We`re being asked alright, but it seems the Yes campaign can be distilled into the phrase: "Europe has been good for us, it would be bad manners of not to do what`s expected of us" 2000: Jorg Haider`s Freedom party come to power in a democratic election in Austria. The heads of government of the other fourteen EU members decided to cease cooperation with the Austrian government. A nasty piece of work he may have been, but your either for democracy or you`re agin` it. I agree completely. I am inclined to vote No for these reasons. This treaty which essentially was rejected democratically by the voters of France and the Netherlands is now being foisted on those same voters as long as little old Ireland does what it is told. You can argue that as the democratically elected governments have signed the treaty democratic duty is done. This argument does not convince me. I am "pro-European" but I am even more pro-democracy
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:37	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	A lot of people claiming they want the EU to be more democratic. For this to be true, the Commission needs to lose power and the Parliament to gain. For this to be true, Ireland will have to lose its veto in many more areas. What exactly do ye want lads ? Can`t have it both ways.
Owenmoresider* (113 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:37	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Owenmoresider* (113 Posts)	Originally posted by Abruzzi Spur: Micko I think your being very naïve in the extreme there to say there’s no vested interest in any of these “respectable ” parties pushing for a yes vote. They are all married up to pan popular fronts in Europe like there’s no tomorrow. Can you imagine Enda Kenny having to go back to Angela and tell her we voted No? Or Cowan to Silvio? They are part of the same wheel designed to push Europe into a superstate. Now you either value Irish autonomy and European membership or you don’t? I will be voting No as rejecting this treaty means status quo, we are still in the EU with a veto on most crucial issues. Rejecting this treaty does not change anything, passing it does. When Kevin Myers says the Shinners may be murderers and s****gs but they are not wrong on this issue it tells me something. For what its worth I was always a floating labour/ FG voter, I voted for Brian Meaney in last general election. I’m disgusted with the Labour party’s stance on this. Agree with that. Just cos FF, FG and Lab are whoring themselves to every EU treaty doesn`t mean that it is a good deal, but sadly when people see that `their` parties are all in favour, it`ll mean it will probably get by. Don`t like being in agreement with SF and the left generally, but am opposed to the EU and its ever-growing interference in the governance of our affairs, that`s just the way it is. Will be voting no and just wish there was at least more credible opposition, and the bullyboy tactics of Cowen don`t show much respect for differing views.
miller1910 (1,725 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:38	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
miller1910 (1,725 Posts)	Originally posted by GluteusMaximus: I agree completely. I am inclined to vote No for these reasons. This treaty which essentially was rejected democratically by the voters of France and the Netherlands is now being foisted on those same voters as long as little old Ireland does what it is told. You can argue that as the democratically elected governments have signed the treaty democratic duty is done. This argument does not convince me. I am "pro-European" but I am even more pro-democracy This is rubbish - the French voted against a constiution with all the provisions that entailed which their voters did not like regarding Euroepan symboism. A serious % of their no vote was also anti-Pres Chriac at the time which was enough to carry the no vote. The fact is that their Legislature has ratified it now without even a murmur. How other member states ratify it is entirely their own business - lets concentrate on our own affairs first and let a world superpower like France look after themselves.
miller1910 (1,725 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:41	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
miller1910 (1,725 Posts)	Originally posted by artfoley: it`s called a protest vote micko and it`s just as important as a spoilt vote I wil, however, say again that the amount of info regarding this treaty is wholly insufficient for people to make an informed choice and therefore people must vote no on that basis alone you have access to the internet so why don`t you look it up - the info is freely available. It`s not as if it`s being deliberately hidden from you. Honestly, some people won`t be happy until Cowen calls to their house and reads it to them as a bedtime story.
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:47	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Originally posted by miller1910: you have access to the internet so why don`t you look it up - the info is freely available. It`s not as if it`s being deliberately hidden from you. Honestly, some people won`t be happy until Cowen calls to their house and reads it to them as a bedtime story. In a previous popular thread on the subject, I actually provided a link to the EU`s official leaflet on the treaty. The link was all but ignored. Considering the times we live in and considering this is an INTERNET site, I`m amazed that people here can`t get their hands on information about the treaty. I`d say something if it was people from an older generation who were complaining considering they mightn`t have access to the internet. And here`s the link for the second time. http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/index_en.htm If you don`t visit this site and have a good read and yet come back afterwards and say you didn`t get any info on the treat, then you quite simply shouldn`t be allowed to vote. This message has been edited - 14-may-2008 @ 10:52
Owenmoresider* (113 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:52	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Owenmoresider* (113 Posts)	Originally posted by miller1910: This is rubbish - the French voted against a constiution with all the provisions that entailed which their voters did not like regarding Euroepan symboism. A serious % of their no vote was also anti-Pres Chriac at the time which was enough to carry the no vote. The fact is that their Legislature has ratified it now without even a murmur. How other member states ratify it is entirely their own business - lets concentrate on our own affairs first and let a world superpower like France look after themselves. Then what is different with this Treaty? Can`t see that it has changed to any great extent. And it`s convenient that the French managed to avoid giving that pesky electorate a say in the matter, along with 25 other countries. Democracy indeed.
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 10:57	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,297 Posts)	Originally posted by Owenmoresider*: And it`s convenient that the French managed to avoid giving that pesky electorate a say in the matter, along with 25 other countries. Democracy indeed. A very strange comment. Why is it that passing the treaty through parliament without a referendum is "undemocratic" yet say passing the Annual Budget Bill through parliament without a Referendum would be "democratic" ? There is no specification in the French COnstitution for the need for a Referendum so none was held. As simple as that. As far as I know, there was no need for a Referendum on the EU Constitution either but the Parliament decided to grant the people one anyways. This message has been edited - 14-may-2008 @ 10:58
miller1910 (1,725 Posts)	Posted: 14-May-2008 11:07	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
miller1910 (1,725 Posts)	B][/QUOTE] Then what is different with this Treaty? Can`t see that it has changed to any great extent. And it`s convenient that the French managed to avoid giving that pesky electorate a say in the matter, along with 25 other countries. Democracy indeed.[/QUOTE] some countries such as Ireland are obliged to have a referendum while others are not and even in some countries such as Germany referenda are illegal. The point is that we should leave them to decide this issue as they see fit and not allow it to influence our decision. This faux-concern for the 60million French population shouldn`t be top of our list of priorities.

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