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Eileen Flynn RIP
nlgbbbblth
(3,600 Posts)
Posted:
11-Sep-2008 14:54
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Some of you with long memories and being of a certain age will have heard of Eileen Flynn.
Sadly she died suddenly on Tuesday night.
While she was famous for her unequal battle vs The Holy Faith convent and the might of the Catholic church back in the early 1980s, on a personal level she was a great character.
All through my teenage drinking years and beyond, she was a familiar face behind the bar of Richie`s pub on The Quay, New Ross.
The pub is usually a port of call for me whenever I`m back home to see the parents. A unique atmosphere, good music and a good buzz.
The place won`t be the same without her.
May she rest in peace.
____________________________________________________________________________________-
From today`s Irish Times
++++++++++++++++++
THE DEATH has taken place of Wexford school teacher Eileen Flynn, who became an important figure in the history of the separation between the Catholic Church and the State.
In August 1982 Ms Flynn was dismissed from her job as an English and history teacher at the Holy Faith Convent in New Ross, Co Wexford. At the time she was sacked, Ms Flynn was unmarried with a baby son and was living with the baby`s father, a separated man, Richie Roche.
Two months after Ms Flynn gave birth she received a letter from the school manager informing her that following her decision not to resign from the school her position was being terminated.
The letter referred to complaints from parents about her lifestyle and of her open rejection of the "norms of behaviour" and the ideals the school existed to promote. It also reminded her of the "scandal" already caused.
Ms Flynn sought to be reinstated in her post but lost her unfair dismissal case at the Employment Appeals Tribunal and at the Circuit Court. She finally lost her appeal to the High Court on March 8th, 1985. In his reserved judgment, Mr Justice Declan Costello said: "I do not think that the respondents over-emphasise the power of example on the lives of the pupils in the school and they were entitled to conclude that the appellant`s conduct was capable of damaging their efforts to foster in their pupils norms of behaviour and religious tenets which the school had been established to promote."
Her case caused a polarisation of opinion in Ireland at the time, of both outrage and agreement. The case became a cause célèbre because it occurred in a decade which saw divisive referendums on divorce and abortion.
Writing to this newspaper in 1995, Sister Rosemary Duffy of the Holy Faith Order wrote: "Eileen Flynn was dismissed because in the town where most of the pupils and parents of the school lived she openly and despite warnings to the contrary continued to live a lifestyle flagrantly in conflict with the norms which the school sought to promote."
In an interview with The Irish Times in 1999, Ms Flynn said: "At the time it was a very frightening situation for me. Look at it this way: I had a small child and my livelihood had just been taken away from me.
"People were terrified that there was going to be a witch-hunt, that my case would just be the first. Yes the school won, but it was a pyrrhic victory."
Ms Flynn spoke of how she had not expected to win due to the power of the church. "At that stage its reputation was still untarnished," she said.
Eileen Flynn went on to marry Richie Roche over a decade ago. She died on Tuesday and is survived by her husband and their five children. She will be buried in Co Wexford on Friday.
© 2008 The Irish Times
Mountain Slasher
(206 Posts)
Posted:
11-Sep-2008 16:50
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Didn`t realise you were a Ross man nlgbbbblth.
I knew Eileen some years ago when I taught her sons and must say I always enjoyed her company. I called into the wake this afternoon and had a few words with Richie. She was a great character.
Ar dheis De...
Lady Penelope
(643 Posts)
Posted:
11-Sep-2008 20:19
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Did she ever return to teaching when all the publicity had died down?
count of monte cristo
(463 Posts)
Posted:
11-Sep-2008 21:33
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she thought in the CBS primary in New Ross i beleive
Fitzy
(5,226 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 07:46
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It was one of the most disgusting and disgraceful examples of the Church`s power in this country. Amazing how in such a short time we would all now consider the entire episode to be completely ridiculous.
A perfectly good teacher hounded out of her job for something that had absolutely nothing to do with her profession and more to do with the sanctimonious views of people soon to have their hypocrisy shown for all the world to see.
And she got bugger all justice at the end of it.
May she rest in peace.
T_de_B
(3,147 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 08:37
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Originally posted by Fitzy:
It was one of the most disgusting and disgraceful examples of the Church`s power in this country. Amazing how in such a short time we would all now consider the entire episode to be completely ridiculous.
A perfectly good teacher hounded out of her job for something that had absolutely nothing to do with her profession and more to do with the sanctimonious views of people soon to have their hypocrisy shown for all the world to see.
And she got bugger all justice at the end of it.
May she rest in peace.
I think you will find that your analysis is trite and incomplete. The usual knee jerk reaction we would expect from Church bashers.
Dont forget that when she sought legal protection from the dismissal it was the State who opposed here every step of the way to the high court.
We also know that the Church was a handy scapegoat for her real enemies who resided in the Fitzgerald government of the time, who were determined that no public servants should have political friends such as she had.
That, at least, was my reading of the matter at the time.
When I heard the egregious Gemma Hussey on the radio last evening shedding crocodile tears over her dismissal, I almost puked.
model born
(280 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 12:58
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Originally posted by T_de_B:
I think you will find that your analysis is trite and incomplete. The usual knee jerk reaction we would expect from Church bashers.
Dont forget that when she sought legal protection from the dismissal it was the State who opposed here every step of the way to the high court.
We also know that the Church was a handy scapegoat for her real enemies who resided in the Fitzgerald government of the time, who were determined that no public servants should have political friends such as she had.
That, at least, was my reading of the matter at the time.
When I heard the egregious Gemma Hussey on the radio last evening shedding crocodile tears over her dismissal, I almost puked.
Ypu are indulging in a fair old bit select ive recollection there youself T-de-B, as I remember at the time, nobody from any party calm out to fight for Eileen she was laft totally on her own to fight both church and state. This she did with the help of Richie Roche, a local publican,at a time when it was niether wise nor profitable . He suffered years of abuse from the organs of the state for that stance.
At that time a belt of the crozier was something to be feared and FF heads did not appear above the parapet, so if you are handing out swipes at the politicians of the time then a broadside to all of them would be more appropriate, to just name one person is extremely unfair, if my now failing memory is correct was mary O`Rourke not opposition spokesperson for ed. at that time. Mary is not a woman normally associated with silence but I don`t recall her voicing any criticism against the church at that time. Remembering that it was a church run school that set itself up as moral judge and jury and sacked Eileen, in an outrageous act of hyprocisy. Events that were to unfold in the following decade were to show just how hypoctitical the church of that time really was.
Eieen and Richie stood alone against a demi-god, and caused many people to question the role of the church in Irish society. In a small way they started to push at a very big rock that once it began to roll, gathered speed, and became an avalanche that they could not halt. They were real rebels in a very conservative society. As Fitzy put it "she got bugger all justice at the end of it." But she and society were the real winners and wherever she now rests she is probably smiling, because despite all the pain they her through, she was not a bitter person.
Ar dheis De go raibh a anam.
sid wallace
(Power User)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 13:08
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this case went before the High Court, and she lost there. The High Court were of the view that the school and the State were perfectly within their rights and the dismissal was not unfair. They were the times we lived .
stanley
(93 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 13:13
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It was a very dark time in the history of church state relations in the Ireland of yesteryear.
Spent last New Year`s Eve in Ritchies. The only decent pub in the town.
georgy comerford
(331 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 13:22
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Originally posted by sid wallace:
this case went before the High Court, and she lost there. The High Court were of the view that the school and the State were perfectly within their rights and the dismissal was not unfair. They were the times we lived .
Would a court give a different ruling if the same case came before it today? It`s doubtful that any school would take similar action against a teacher but would the defence of maintaining the Catholic ethos of the school still stand?
Portumna Bridge
(1,320 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 14:11
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Originally posted by georgy comerford:
Would a court give a different ruling if the same case came before it today? It`s doubtful that any school would take similar action against a teacher but would the defence of maintaining the Catholic ethos of the school still stand?
The short answer to this is No. Under equality legislation, the only exception when it is legal to discriminate against someone on the grounds of religion is when it comes to education, and particularly failure to uphold the ethos of the school.
1982 was a horrible year, and the Flynn case happened around the same time as The Kerry babies Case, and the death of Ann Lovett in Granard. The courage and bravery of people like Eileen Flynn brought attidues in this country out of the dark ages.....
T_de_B
(3,147 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 14:22
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Originally posted by model born:
This she did with the help of Richie Roche, a local publican,at a time when it was niether wise nor profitable . He suffered years of abuse from the organs of the state for that stance.
There you have my recollection in a nutshell. In a change to the normal epigram, in this instance to get to the truth of the matter, one should "cherchez l`homme".
Thank you.
Fitzy
(5,226 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 15:35
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Originally posted by T_de_B:
I think you will find that your analysis is trite and incomplete. The usual knee jerk reaction we would expect from Church bashers.
Dont forget that when she sought legal protection from the dismissal it was the State who opposed here every step of the way to the high court.
We also know that the Church was a handy scapegoat for her real enemies who resided in the Fitzgerald government of the time, who were determined that no public servants should have political friends such as she had.
That, at least, was my reading of the matter at the time.
When I heard the egregious Gemma Hussey on the radio last evening shedding crocodile tears over her dismissal, I almost puked.
So what you are saying Thomas is that the persecution of Eileen Flynn was wrong (quite obviously and I don`t accept this whole "ah sure that was the time that was in it" bollocks ) , but that I`m accusing the wrong section of the community of hypocrisy? The politicians, not the church were to blame?
I`m sorry but I find that analysis absolutely incomplete. Who was influencing the politicians?
There`s no question that our elected representatives had one of their all too often collective fits of moral amnesia in the face of obvious political expediency. So I`ll widen the sphere of blame for this to lump the politicians in with the church, six of one, half a dozen of another in this case.
Quite happy to be a basher of both church and state in this case, as they were both to blame.
Father Fernando Lugo
(203 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 15:41
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And what were the Holy Faith as a religious order supposed to do? Anyone ever hear of the 7th Commandment. `Thou shalt not commit adultery`.
ballygowan
(1,987 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 15:43
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Originally posted by Father Fernando Lugo:
And what were the Holy Faith as a religious order supposed to do? Anyone ever hear of the 7th Commandment. `Thou shalt not commit adultery`.
Ignore and and go home and mind their own business.
Fitzy
(5,226 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 15:49
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Originally posted by ballygowan:
Ignore and and go home and mind their own business.
Almost precisely word for word what I would have said.
Jesus Evo, how have you been? Gearing up for the cricket? When will we start talking about that?
T_de_B
(3,147 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 16:36
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Originally posted by Fitzy:
So what you are saying Thomas is that the persecution of Eileen Flynn was wrong (quite obviously and I don`t accept this whole "ah sure that was the time that was in it" bollocks ) , but that I`m accusing the wrong section of the community of hypocrisy? The politicians, not the church were to blame?
Absolutely correct Fitzy.
Except I never mentioned anything about "the times that were in it".
The times that were in it in the sense that you mean it to be had nothing to do with this episode.
At least as far as I remember.
However, the political prejudices (not policies, mind...prejudices ) of the govt in power at the time had pretty well everything to do with it and they found the church a useful patsy.
Father Fernando Lugo
(203 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 17:07
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Originally posted by T_de_B:
Absolutely correct Fitzy.
Except I never mentioned anything about "the times that were in it".
The times that were in it in the sense that you mean it to be had nothing to do with this episode.
At least as far as I remember.
However, the political prejudices (not policies, mind...prejudices ) of the govt in power at the time had pretty well everything to do with it and they found the church a useful patsy.
Never miss a chance to sprout your Fianna Fail agenda.
T_de_B
(3,147 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 18:58
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Originally posted by Father Fernando Lugo:
Never miss a chance to sprout your Fianna Fail agenda.
In this instance I was even more critical of Fianna Fáil that the Dublin 4 mafia.
At least the Dublin 4 crowd had the excuse of bigotry.
a langer boy
(2,578 Posts)
Posted:
12-Sep-2008 21:49
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A brave woman!
What people dont realise is that the Dept of Education and the Church were one and the same!
Could still be, the old Knights are well entrenched there. This same Dept is today pursuing parents of autistic kids for costs and have wasted 25 million in doing so in the last few years! other kids are still taught in portocabins as we speak!
Never knew Eileen, but she exposed this Dept for what it was at the time. Her name will be remembered for her brave and lonely stance.
BOULD THADY
(98 Posts)
Posted:
13-Sep-2008 02:05
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Originally posted by Father Fernando Lugo:
And what were the Holy Faith as a religious order supposed to do? Anyone ever hear of the 7th Commandment. `Thou shalt not commit adultery`.
That`s the sixth commandment Father Lugo.The seventh is "Thou shalt not steal". Are you a proper catholic at all ?
Before you start to pontificate about religion maybe you should get your basic facts right.
Lady Penelope
(643 Posts)
Posted:
13-Sep-2008 11:33
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Correct me if I`m wrong but Eileen Flynn was single so could not be committing adultery.
Fitzy
(5,226 Posts)
Posted:
14-Sep-2008 13:39
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All rather embarrassing there Evo, may be you should think before you type!
T_de_B, I think we may be coming to the same conclusion from different angles. There`s no question the state found the church to be a useful patsy, but likewise the church was only to happy to become that patsy.
(The times that were in it comment was reaction to Sids comment )
rebelhorse
(881 Posts)
Posted:
14-Sep-2008 16:58
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Originally posted by Father Fernando Lugo:
And what were the Holy Faith as a religious order supposed to do? Anyone ever hear of the 7th Commandment. `Thou shalt not commit adultery`.
What about judge not lest ye be judged??Did the "holy sisters" turn away children of single parents??This happened in 1982, not 1942 so none of this "of the time" horse manure
T_de_B
(3,147 Posts)
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14-Sep-2008 21:08
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Originally posted by Fitzy:
T_de_B, I think we may be coming to the same conclusion from different angles. There`s no question the state found the church to be a useful patsy, but likewise the church was only to happy to become that patsy.
We``ll get there yet, Fitzy.
I have a dream..........................
Revolted yet again today by yet more hypocritical ráiméis on today`s Tribune. This time from Justine McCarthy excoriating the church and the political and legal establishment for their treatment of Eileen Flynn at the time.
Look, let no rewriting of this most shameful episode disguise the fact that the media were at the forefront of the demonising of Eileen Flynn. I dare any one of them to show me an article from the time in support of her other than perhaps from Vincent Browne.
Don’t forget that this episode occurred in the heyday of the Stickies’ influence in 26 co. journalism.
The true unpleasantness of this “journalistic” culture was finally revealed when a young reporter, Jenny McKeever, was sacked from her job for what was defined as a breach of Section 31.. This occurred 7 years after The Eileen Flynn controversy.
Her dismissal followed thefuneral of the three IRA members, Máiread Farrell, Sean Savage and Danny McCann by the SAS in Gibraltar in March 1988.
At the Border, journalists, mourners and the Sinn Fein leadership left their cars as the hearses stopped. It was decided that the Tricolour should be removed before the cortege moved northwards across the Border. Martin McGuinness, now Minister for Education and then the subject of RTE censorship, instructed that the flags be folded. Jenny McKeever recorded his words and they were played the following morning on RTE radio.
For this appalling transgression and violation of the law of the land, McKeever lost her job and left RTE. Some fellow members of the National Union of Journalists supported her but many did not.
Such was the revisionists` influence that many chose to stay quiet in the interests of their own careers. News was not the only victim of the culture of Section 31
Stalin would have been envious of their modus operandi of the times.
Revolting journalistic parasites!
It remains my belief that Eileen was another of their victims.
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