An Fear Rua - Pay for public sector workers up

Outcast

(664 Posts)

Posted: 16-Oct-2008 14:24

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Pay for public sector workers up
Thursday, 16 October 2008 13:23
Average pay for public sector workers is up slightly. The average weekly earnings in the public sector (excluding health ) rose by 1.7% in the year to June 2008.

Employment in the public sector is up by 8,600. A total of 262,600 people were employed in the public sector (excluding health ) in June 2008 compared to 254,000 in June 2007.

Employment in education increased from 97,000 to 101,600.

AdvertisementOverall employment in the public sector (including health ) was 373,100 in June 2008, an increase of
7,500 compared with June 2007.

clint

(240 Posts)

Posted: 16-Oct-2008 14:38

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Originally posted by Outcast:
Pay for public sector workers up

Is this a bad thing or a good thing??

Ozzy

(1,867 Posts)

Posted: 16-Oct-2008 14:40

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Originally posted by Outcast:
Pay for public sector workers up
Thursday, 16 October 2008 13:23
Average pay for public sector workers is up slightly. The average weekly earnings in the public sector   (excluding health  )   rose by 1.7% in the year to June 2008.

Employment in the public sector is up by 8,600. A total of 262,600 people were employed in the public sector   (excluding health  )   in June 2008 compared to 254,000 in June 2007.

Employment in education increased from 97,000 to 101,600.

AdvertisementOverall employment in the public sector   (including health  )   was 373,100 in June 2008, an increase of
7,500 compared with June 2007.

Would have thought that public sector (and private ) pay would go up every year anyway. The more surprising thing is that a lucky 7,500 people got public sector employment despite the collapsing economy. Both Irish Times and Irish Independent editorials on budget made same point on budget, Lenihan failed to tackle public sector reform, despite having a great opportunity to take some real action. I seriously thought he`d take some strong measures, but twas put on the long finger again.

Joe's Toes

(1,091 Posts)

Posted: 16-Oct-2008 16:35

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Originally posted by Ozzy:

Would have thought that public sector (and private ) pay would go up every year anyway. The more surprising thing is that a lucky 7,500 people got public sector employment despite the collapsing economy. Both Irish Times and Irish Independent editorials on budget made same point on budget, Lenihan failed to tackle public sector reform, despite having a great opportunity to take some real action. I seriously thought he`d take some strong measures, but twas put on the long finger again.

T`was easier to take medical cards off 70 year old pensioners than to tackle the public service unions.

Anyone who doesnt yet realise that Fianna FAIL run the country according to the 5 year election cycle not for the benefit of the people is living in cloud cuckoo land at this stage..

kilkennycat2004

(Power User)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 12:08

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The government are apparently announcing plans involving not a single job loss for these guys next week but meanwhile....

By Finfacts Team Nov 7, 2008

Irish Public Sector Pensions have been termed among the best in the world and the beneficiaries include the politicians who are responsible for the system. It`s called feathering your own nest. Pensions now account for 9.8% of the total Pay and Pension Paybill, up from 8.7% in 2003. Overall, the pensions bill has increased from €1.1bn in 2003 to €1.8bn in 2008 representing a 66.6% increase over the period while pay in contrast rose by 45.4%. The pensions bill has increased from €876m in 2001.

In Education and Science, the pensioner total is equivalent to 24% of the current workforce and is 26% in the Health sector.

The Department of Finance`s Analysis of Exchequer Pay and Pensions Bill 2003 - 2008 Report says: "The increases in the first benchmarking report reflected the acute tightness of labour market conditions around the 1999/2001 period which saw a substantial number of private sector firms concluding pay deals significantly in excess of the standard terms of the national agreements then applicable. These conditions did not apply in relation to the second benchmarking exercise. The second report, published in December 2007, concluded that when account is taken of the more valuable pension arrangements in the public service relative to private sector arrangements (the superior value was assessed as 12% of salary ) the vast majority of grades in the public service have not fallen behind private sector rates."

The Department doesn`t says that public sector pay by comparable grade was below private sector pay in 1999/2001, as that claim would be fraudulent, even though it was the basis of the first so-called benchmarking special pay increase of an average of 9% - - which ministers, the rest of the public service and pensioners were awarded.

In 2004, the former Davy Stockbrokers economist Jim O`Leary who had resigned from the first benchmarking body because it was a farce, joined the Department of Economics at Maynooth University, and published with two of his colleagues, the results of six months` rigorous and painstaking research into public-private sector pay differentials in Ireland - Public-Private Wage Differentials in Ireland, G.Boyle, R.McElligott and J.O`Leary, ESRI Quarterly Economic Commentary, Summer 2004.

O`Leary and his colleagues wanted to discover whether similar people in similar employment circumstances were better or worse off working in the public than in the private sector. In order to do this, they had to control for attributes like age, experience, gender and education, and also for job characteristics like occupation, type of contract and size of establishment.

As the CSO data does not permit this kind of analysis, the dataset that they had to use is one based on a large-scale survey conducted by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI ) and used for much of its research into poverty and inequality.

The core finding was that on average, public servants earned 13% cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like-for-like basis in 2001.

The researchers discovered that the size of this margin (the public sector premium ) in 2001 was not significantly different from what it had been in 1994, suggesting that pay increases in the public sector had kept pace with the private sector throughout the Celtic Tiger period.

Another discovery was that the margin by which public service workers outearned their private sector counterparts tended to be significantly larger at the bottom of the income distribution than at the top.

The first benchmarking body viewed pensions as being irrelevant in comparing public and private pay as the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy wanted to produce a favourable end result for the public sector unions.

As for the second benchmarking report, the "more valuable pension arrangements in the public service relative to private sector arrangements," was assessed as 12% of salary, as if all private sector workers are covered.

Convenient indeed, but the majority of Irish private sector workers have no occupational pension. Besides, many of those who do, are exposed to the vagaries of the market.

Irish pension funds were down 33.4% in the year to October and the average annual return over the past 10 years was 1.9% __ less than inflation.

With a severe recession expected in 2009 and a slow recovery thereafter, returns will be poor for the foreseeable future. This will hit workers who will retire in that time frame. As for the rest of private sector workers, it`s unlucky to be among the outsiders in Ireland.

For a private sector worker to have the equivalent benefit of a public sector pension, it would require funding of an estimated 25 to 28% of annual salary every year for 40 years.

The gilt-edged public sector pension is indexed for life to the earnings of current incumbents of the last job held. So when the Dublin City Manager got a 36% pay hike last October, his predecessor`s pension also jumped 36%!!

Current Minister for Health Mary Harney will get an annual pension of about €130,000 plus a severance payment of €70,000, if she retires in 2012 at the age of 59. Her pension will then rise in line with ministerial pay rises for the rest of her life.

The Sunday Independent said last month that one of many beneficiaries of the generous public sector wage and pension structure is the current Chief Justice, John L Murray. As Chief Justice, he receives an annual salary of €295,915 a year __ which is now greater than that paid to the Taoiseach. On retirement he will also be entitled to a defined benefit pension which will be worth up to 60% of his salary a year and a lump sum of one-and-a-half times his final salary.

However, he is also currently paid a pension for his two stints as Attorney-General. Because that pension is linked to the current pay level for the position, €219,000, he received €69,042 in 2007 from the State as a pension. He also receives a pension entitlement from his time on the European Court of Justice.

It was estimated that it would cost as much as €9.5m to fund Murray`s pension if he was in the private sector.

Public Sector Pay

Unemployment has risen by over 94,000 in the past year and the rise of 15,800 in October would be 1.2 million in the US on a population equivalent basis.

The number on the Live Register could well rise by 100,000 to 360,000 by the end of 2009.

“If we try to ride out this recession as if it is not affecting us or shouldn’t affect us, then we won’t be competitive, we won’t be able to increase our exports, we won’t be able to generate the wealth to get us back on track," Taoiseach Brian Cowen, said in an interview with Hot Press magazine, which was published this week. “As I say, this isn’t the full process of adjustment by any manner of means.”

"At the end of the day, if everyone stands up and says, `Not me, mate`. don`t be surprised if we don`t get there as quick as we should,"Cowen told a, Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU ) business conference last week.

He said the public has not yet grasped the gravity of the situation facing the country, in what he described as "the most severe global economic and financial conditions for a century".

The pay and pensions bill for 2009 will be about €20bn.

The proposed national pay agreement provides that all private sector workers will have a three-month pay pause. They will then receive a 3.5% increase over six months and a further 2.5% for the following year. Public sector workers will have an 11-month pay pause from the last module of Towards 2016.

They will then receive 3.5% for the next nine months (commencing 1 September 2009 ) , and a further 2.5% for the remainder of the agreement.

In the private sector, apart from the thousands who will lose their jobs, many of the rest will not get any pay rise.

Apart from the pay rise in September 2009, public sector staff who are not at the top of their pay scales receive an annual increment of at least €1,000 in addition to any increase agreed through social partnership. For example in 2007, an exc utive officer in the public service with two years` service would have received an annual increment of €1,632 or 5% of salary in addition to the Towards 2016 increase of 4%, giving a total salary increase of 9%.

Every one per cent increase in pay for the public sector costs the public purse in the region of €200 million annually.

"At the moment, 10% of the cost of every teacher, doctor and nurse is being paid from borrowing. Any extra ones would be paid for 100% from borrowing.

"It does not matter if it is me, or somebody else, at the top table __ I`m certainly not infallible, as recent times have proved, but we are going to have to pull together to get through this.

"Business leaders need to stand up, and trade union leaders need to stand up, and say what the situation is," Cowen told the EIU conference.

It`s overdue time he showed leadership to match his warnings.

Scrap all increases including increments in the public sector and implement a general cut of 10% on salaries above €100,000.

With home loan rates falling, public service staff would have an offset to either a pay freeze or a cut.

Publish detailed spending budgets with cross-departmental cost categories and implement public sector reform starting with numbers of Minister of State, advisers, constituency "helpers," the Oireachtas and across central and local governments - - How many housing managers have nothing effectively to do in local authorities, now that budgets have been slashed? The questions could go on and on.

The political and public service leadership are the biggest beneficiaries of the Irish Insiders` system. Will the public finances have to become so dire before they take serious action?

© Copyright 2008 by Finfacts.com

dubinhell

(254 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 12:33

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Originally posted by kilkennycat2004:

The gilt-edged public sector pension is indexed for life to the earnings of current incumbents of the last job held.

Is this true for all public sector employees or just for those at the top end, ministers highly paid doctors etc?

Aisling geal

(242 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 13:52

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Originally posted by kilkennycat2004:
The government are apparently announcing plans involving not a single job loss for these guys next week but meanwhile....

Logical arguments don’t work, have you not read the script written by the beards, its all the fault of developers, the tent at the galway races, brown envelopes, the PD’s, the banks, Mary Harney, the fat cats and anyone who suggests that they do not deserve another 6% pay rise.

The greed emanating from these beards is sickening, a few of these deluded ignorant beards even want to hold out for a better deal! Unbelievable.

polladdy

(528 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 14:48

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Originally posted by Aisling geal:

Logical arguments don’t work, have you not read the script written by the beards, its all the fault of developers, the tent at the galway races, brown envelopes, the PD’s, the banks, Mary Harney, the fat cats and anyone who suggests that they do not deserve another 6% pay rise.

The greed emanating from these beards is sickening, a few of these deluded ignorant beards even want to hold out for a better deal! Unbelievable.

polladdy

(528 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 14:53

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Originally posted by polladdy:

I have to agree. Most private workers are going to work at present with huge worries about thier jobs. I estimate that 50% have taken pay cuts. I find it galling to listen to public employees moaning (not all mind you ) and refusing to row in with everyone else because its not their fault.
I can sympathise with air lingus workers losing jobs. That right to fight for. However all increases should be stopped with immediate effect and all overtime etc

OD28

(1,133 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 15:03

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Originally posted by polladdy:

I have to agree. Most private workers are going to work at present with huge worries about thier jobs. I estimate that 50% have taken pay cuts.

That`s a shocking statistic, is that based on anything or just your opinion?

Watch The Break

(339 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 15:25

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Originally posted by polladdy:
[I have to agree. Most private workers are going to work at present with huge worries about thier jobs. I estimate that 50% have taken pay cuts. I find it galling to listen to public employees moaning (not all mind you ) and refusing to row in with everyone else because its not their fault.
I can sympathise with air lingus workers losing jobs. That right to fight for. However all increases should be stopped with immediate effect and all overtime etc

You`re ignoring the fact that public service employees forego significant market based perks and opportunity by being part of the public sector. They wait longer for a promotion than most people wait for three. The right-wing rhetoric underlying this cut public spending hysteria is f**=========`ing crazy, and its leading us down the road to another collapse in public services that will take another generation to recover from. Any international comparisons clearly indicate that we have LOW, not high public spending. Oh but we are a small country, we can`t afford public services blah blah blah. Bull`s**. If we`re going down this road why not just close the public hospitals and make poor people fight on the streets for life saving operations. Its the only "realistic" option.

ballydalane

(712 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 15:36

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Originally posted by Watch The Break:

You`re ignoring the fact that public service employees forego significant market based perks and opportunity by being part of the public sector. They wait longer for a promotion than most people wait for three. The right-wing rhetoric underlying this cut public spending hysteria is f**=========`ing crazy, and its leading us down the road to another collapse in public services that will take another generation to recover from. Any international comparisons clearly indicate that we have LOW, not high public spending. Oh but we are a small country, we can`t afford public services blah blah blah. Bull`s**. If we`re going down this road why not just close the public hospitals and make poor people fight on the streets for life saving operations. Its the only "realistic" option.

No reasonable person would suggestcuts in frontline public services such as hospitals, nurses, doctors, guards, schools, teachers and infrastructure but the vast swathes of paper pushers and bureaucrats that have been taken on in the public service over the past 5 years or more.

If 5,000 of these paper pushers were given redundancy do you think it would have any significant effect on the level of service provided to the public than what`s being provided right now? I`d venture to say absolutely no effect whatsoever. How could 11 regional healthboards merge into one HSE and not have one lay-off in paper-pushers? Absolute joke of a system and the private sector workers are paying for it.

Joe's Toes

(1,091 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 16:00

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Originally posted by Watch The Break:

You`re ignoring the fact that public service employees forego significant market based perks and opportunity by being part of the public sector. They wait longer for a promotion than most people wait for three. The right-wing rhetoric underlying this cut public spending hysteria is f**=========`ing crazy, and its leading us down the road to another collapse in public services that will take another generation to recover from. Any international comparisons clearly indicate that we have LOW, not high public spending. Oh but we are a small country, we can`t afford public services blah blah blah. Bull`s**. If we`re going down this road why not just close the public hospitals and make poor people fight on the streets for life saving operations. Its the only "realistic" option.

Significant perks from working in the private sector? Maybe if you are a director of a company.

The real perks in this business are the public sector pensions man, you have conveniently ignored this.

And its not right wing ideology any more.. Its basic maths.

How do you propose we pay for the current levels of public pay. Raise taxes I suppose? So the vast majority of workers in this state in private companies have to pay more money in a time where they are suffering pay reductions, job losses, consumer spending slowdown - job insecurity and you STILL want us to fund the black hole that is the public service pay..

I ask you.. Is that fair... Straight answer required please.

Aisling geal

(242 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 16:48

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Originally posted by Watch The Break:

You`re ignoring the fact that public service employees forego significant market based perks and opportunity by being part of the public sector. .

A myth propagated by the bearded pied pipers, civil services expenses could only be dreamed about by those working in the private sector. Milage rates, overnight allowances etc are hugely inflated, sure for years they even had their own air line to fly them around Europe in premier class while those emigrating sitting in steerage paid extra to cover them.

Any contractors out there know the value of the civil service rates!

spade caller

(3,554 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 17:51

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Originally posted by Aisling geal:

A myth propagated by the bearded pied pipers, civil services expenses could only be dreamed about by those working in the private sector. Milage rates, overnight allowances etc are hugely inflated, sure for years they even had their own air line to fly them around Europe in premier class while those emigrating sitting in steerage paid extra to cover them.

Any contractors out there know the value of the civil service rates!

we get it alright. you like calling public sector workers "beards", jeez, talk about overkill...........

polladdy

(528 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 17:59

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Originally posted by OD28:

That`s a shocking statistic, is that based on anything or just your opinion?

If i include overtime and bonuses i`d say 100%. But to give balance i assume the public service are not getting overtime. Again for clarity i agree with some others that we are not talking about frontline.This is the paper pushers.

I am involved in the cork business community and most companies have pay freezes since last year and are asking employees to hold for 1 to 2 years.

Civil service rates of mileage are not paid except to avoid paying tax ie mileage instead of pay.

FTJC

(1,138 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 18:26

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Anyone who defends the public sector numbers and employment conditions is an idiot....

I`m down money on this time last year as, like most other private sector employees, I don`t have a set salary irrespective of performance. Hence the economic downturn has automatically adjusted my pay downwards due to less business happening - "Benchmarked" public sector employees need not worry about recessions and pay reductions of course!

I don`t have a gauranteed pension - Public sector employees do!

There have been widespread lay-offs in the private sector in the last year - the public pay headcount has increased in the last year!

I`m not part of a union - The whole public sector is unionised!

I didn`t get basic pay increase this year - the public sector did!

I clock up alot of unpaid overtime as I`m on a salary with bonuses - the public sector wouldn`t work a minute over unless they were getting paid for it.

I haven`t taken a sick day this year - my friends in the public sector think of sick days as part of their already embellished holidays!

This message has been edited - 18-nov-2008 @ 18:27

Ozzy

(1,867 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 18:27

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Originally posted by Watch The Break:

You`re ignoring the fact that public service employees forego significant market based perks and opportunity by being part of the public sector. They wait longer for a promotion than most people wait for three. .

God bless your innocence!

Aisling geal

(242 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 18:36

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Originally posted by spade caller:

we get it alright. you like calling public sector workers "beards", jeez, talk about overkill...........

I call public sector workers nothing of the kind.

Jeez… they would be the jumped up shop stewards earning 6 figure salaries who threaten to take the ball home with them if their every demand is not met.

Pog Mahone

(9,387 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 19:23

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Originally posted by Aisling geal:

Logical arguments don’t work, have you not read the script written by the beards, its all the fault of developers, the tent at the galway races, brown envelopes, the PD’s, the banks, Mary Harney, the fat cats and anyone who suggests that they do not deserve another 6% pay rise.

The greed emanating from these beards is sickening, a few of these deluded ignorant beards even want to hold out for a better deal! Unbelievable.

Yawn!

OD28

(1,133 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 19:52

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Originally posted by FTJC:

Anyone who defends the public sector numbers and employment conditions is an idiot....

I`m down money on this time last year as, like most other private sector employees, I don`t have a set salary irrespective of performance. Hence the economic downturn has automatically adjusted my pay downwards due to less business happening - "Benchmarked" public sector employees need not worry about recessions and pay reductions of course!

I don`t have a gauranteed pension - Public sector employees do!

There have been widespread lay-offs in the private sector in the last year - the public pay headcount has increased in the last year!

I`m not part of a union - The whole public sector is unionised!

I didn`t get basic pay increase this year - the public sector did!

I clock up alot of unpaid overtime as I`m on a salary with bonuses - the public sector wouldn`t work a minute over unless they were getting paid for it.

I haven`t taken a sick day this year - my friends in the public sector think of sick days as part of their already embellished holidays!

I`m in the public sector, maybe I can chip in here:

I am not in a union, nor are the majority of people in my department.

I have yet to take a sick day in 3 years in public sector. I have managed people in both public and private sector organisations and I found myself dealing with much higher absenteeism in the private.

I do not get paid for overtime. Now, there are public employees (health, gardai, prisons ) who do, but if they stopped doing overtime, what would happen to the levels of service in these areas?

It is a condition of my contract that any pay increases are subject to performance reviews, which take place annually.

When I was in the private sector, I had a set salary, I would have thought this was standard for non-self employed people.

Kevo

(693 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 20:18

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Originally posted by OD28:

I`m in the public sector, maybe I can chip in here:

I am not in a union, nor are the majority of people in my department.

I have yet to take a sick day in 3 years in public sector. I have managed people in both public and private sector organisations and I found myself dealing with much higher absenteeism in the private.

I do not get paid for overtime. Now, there are public employees (health, gardai, prisons ) who do, but if they stopped doing overtime, what would happen to the levels of service in these areas?

It is a condition of my contract that any pay increases are subject to performance reviews, which take place annually.

When I was in the private sector, I had a set salary, I would have thought this was standard for non-self employed people.

U are public sector and not in a union, are u permanent or agency?? Just curious...As thats how i`ve heard that happen before...

Pog Mahone

(9,387 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 20:26

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Originally posted by Kevo:

U are public sector and not in a union, are u permanent or agency?? Just curious...As thats how i`ve heard that happen before...

From the above Kevo I get the distinct impression that you thought all public sector employees were/had to be in a union?

Kevo

(693 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 20:31

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Originally posted by Pog Mahone:

From the above Kevo I get the distinct impression that you thought all public sector employees were/had to be in a union?

I didnt think they had to be in a union, just some people i know worked agency in the public service for a few years, i myself worked agency in public service in UK...

dubliner 2

(10,823 Posts)

Posted: 18-Nov-2008 20:40

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Originally posted by Pog Mahone:

From the above Kevo I get the distinct impression that you thought all public sector employees were/had to be in a union?

I`m not. Left the ASTI in 2000 after the strike and would never rejoin. Re: The debate on the public sector.

On the one hand, yes, the public sector is full of people doing nothing and being paid for it. The Department of Education is full of pen pushers who could be fired in the morning without any diminution of the service provided.

On the other guards, teachers, nurses etc were absolutely raped by the Celtic Tiger. While private sector workers were coining it and while the price of housing went through the roof a lot of public sector workers had to mortgage their souls just for a place to live and indeed some never got on the property ladder at all. It`s a bit rich to blame those people for any woe we`re now in.

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