An Fear Rua - How Much Impact Will The `Drive For Five` Have On Kilkenny Players Psyche?

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Topic: How Much Impact Will The `Drive For Five` Have On Kilkenny Players Psyche?
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 22:58	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	For starters although I certainly understand people such as DJ saying that `its only another Final`, and that Kilkenny players will approach Sunday`s game as if they were preparing for the first Final, the reality is a lot different. Most of us will have known the effect public, and personal, expectations will have had on our performances and will also have experienced situations when our performances, on our personal big day, fell far short of our optimum levels, as the result of over-eagerness, or worry, that we would fail to meet those levels. Thats just human nature. These Kilkenny players are not machines. they`re human beings who will experience the same anxieties as we all have felt in relatively similar circumstances. The facts are: 1 ) . The vast majority of hurling fans of 50 years of age, and even older, - no matter what their county affiliations, - are quite willing to admit this Kilkenny team/squad are the greatest they`ve ever seen 2 ) . Many people who`ve witnessed the great Tipperary team of the 50s-60s, and perhaps other teams of an earlier vintage, would also agree with this contention. 3 ) . Were Kilkenny to lose Sunday`s Final, hindsight might not judge them as favourably, particularly since, by common consent, Tipperary possess the squad not only most likely to dethrone this Kilkenny side, but possess a sufficient number of talented young players, that they could supercede, and exceed, the curent four-in-a-row achievement. 4 ) . Although the Cork achievement wouldn`t be ranked as highly, the record books will show that Kilkenny`s four-in-a-row has been matched by their Leeside rivals. So this game, more than any other in the past five Championship series, is the one that will matter most to this Kilkenny squad. Its clear that all the silly shenanigans and mind games as to will he or won`t he, or they play, or how many key starters will they be missing is both an attempt to make more difficult Tipperary`s tactical stratagem, and to ease the burden of expectation on the Kilkenny players, but its quite possible that it will have an opposite effect: that it will make them aware that their county backroom team, and spin doctors, have felt the need to indulge in such tactics because they believe that the burden of expectation might just be too heavy. which itself will make the players more and more anxious. We`re not talking about mind-games, here. we`re talking of `mind over matter` The question is: will the `drive for five` provide added impetus for these great players, - and how much points is it worth to them? Or how much of a hindrance, also in points terms , could it prove to be?
Mickey Pearse (913 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 23:17	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Mickey Pearse (913 Posts)	As regards point 3 (tipp could exceed the 4 in a row ) are you having a laugh
realdanbreen (4,700 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 23:22	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
realdanbreen (4,700 Posts)	Its a huge burden jimbo and quite frankly one that I think will scupper them on Sunday. Add to that the whole fiasco about injuries and the contention in some quarters that Cody in his right mind would`nt dream of starting a player who has`nt been partaking fully in training and clearly is`nt 100%.
mully93 (578 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 23:29	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
mully93 (578 Posts)	don`t think it will have a big effect but if tipp can survive and reach the last 10 minutes in contention they `drive for five` could catch up with them and give tipp an opportunity to win
mully93 (578 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 23:29	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
mully93 (578 Posts)	don`t think it will have a big effect but if tipp can survive and reach the last 10 minutes in contention they `drive for five` could catch up with them and give tipp an opportunity to win
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 23:31	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Originally posted by Mickey Pearse: As regards point 3 (tipp could exceed the 4 in a row ) are you having a laugh Not in the slightest For the first time in four decades I believe, with considerable justification, that we have a side that can produce more than just what for too long has been a token `one all-Ireland per decade` Are you a Cat?
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 23:32	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Originally posted by realdanbreen: Its a huge burden jimbo and quite frankly one that I think will scupper them on Sunday. Add to that the whole fiasco about injuries and the contention in some quarters that Cody in his right mind would`nt dream of starting a player who has`nt been partaking fully in training and clearly is`nt 100%. I`m disappointed in Brian Cody, this time out, dan. I`m sure, like me, you`ve got huge respect for the man, and are also disappointed that he`d have to resort to these silly mind games
realdanbreen (4,700 Posts)	Posted: 02-Sep-2010 23:37	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
realdanbreen (4,700 Posts)	Originally posted by Yojimbo: I`m disappointed in Brian Cody, this time out, dan. I`m sure, like me, you`ve got huge respect for the man, and are also disappointed that he`d have to resort to these silly mind games Well if he starts a man on Sunday who has`nt trained fully and ca`nt be 100% then clearly he`s lost the dressing room and Henry really is King and calls the shots.
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 00:18	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Originally posted by realdanbreen: Well if he starts a man on Sunday who has`nt trained fully and ca`nt be 100% then clearly he`s lost the dressing room and Henry really is King and calls the shots. what do you make of Kilkenny lads`, like young McCool`s, failure to address the points raised in this topic? Have I hit a raw nerve, do you think?
realdanbreen (4,700 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 00:25	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
realdanbreen (4,700 Posts)	Originally posted by Yojimbo: what do you make of Kilkenny lads`, like young McCool`s, failure to address the points raised in this topic? Have I hit a raw nerve, do you think? Absolutely,but then the horse has seen the writing on the wall. His recent posts are like the last sting of a dying black & amber wasp.
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 00:38	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Originally posted by realdanbreen: Absolutely,but then the horse has seen the writing on the wall. His recent posts are like the last sting of a dying black & amber wasp. I fear the poor old Horse was given the wrong kind of sugar lumps when he attended that last training session. I just hope Cian O`Connor wasn`t involved!
Hold that Line (3,117 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 01:36	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Hold that Line (3,117 Posts)	Looks like a thread full of Tipp lads trying to convince themselves from what I can see. I hope for ye`re sake ye win it lads as ye`ve done some mouthing this week.
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 01:58	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Originally posted by Hold that Line: Looks like a thread full of Tipp lads trying to convince themselves from what I can see. I hope for ye`re sake ye win it lads as ye`ve done some mouthing this week. Thats one way of looking at it, I suppose. The reality is, since its an `open invitation` thread, which is an honest attempt to assess the Kilkenny players mindset in the lead-up to The Big Game, where all views are welcome, the absence of any Cat-contributions can only lead one to conclude that they`re all a bag of nerves right now!
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 02:36	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	Originally posted by Yojimbo: 3 ) . Were Kilkenny to lose Sunday`s Final, hindsight might not judge them as favourably, particularly since, by common consent, Tipperary possess the squad not only most likely to dethrone this Kilkenny side, but possess a sufficient number of talented young players, that they could supercede, and exceed, the curent four-in-a-row achievement. ? Stopped reading when I got to this bit. Either very wishful thinking, or a massive WUM, not quite sure which Anyways, there`s another thread running that has some sensible anlaysis of Sunday`s game
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 03:26	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Originally posted by KeepOnHurling: Stopped reading when I got to this bit. Either very wishful thinking, or a massive WUM, not quite sure which Its neither, of course. Pity you felt so uncomfortable with what you read up to that point that you couldn`t proceed. It might not be a `safe` view, hereabouts, not least given that a sizeable number of people here were quite happily writing off Tipp`s chances for this Championship year, after the defeat to Cork, but it is a valid one. Which has only been confirmed by the nervousness in the Kilkenny camp this past couple of weeks. Something which was not a feature of Final build-up in any of the previous four years
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 03:58	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	Originally posted by Yojimbo: Its neither, of course. Pity you felt so uncomfortable with what you read up to that point that you couldn`t proceed. It might not be a `safe` view, hereabouts, not least given that a sizeable number of people here were quite happily writing off Tipp`s chances for this Championship year, after the defeat to Cork, but it is a valid one. Which has only been confirmed by the nervousness in the Kilkenny camp this past couple of weeks. Something which was not a feature of Final build-up in any of the previous four years OK, lets assume you are serious. Yes an All-Ireland final brings pressure for both teams. Kilkenny have pressure cos it is 5, but last year going for the 4-in-a-row was still massive pressure. And Kilkenny have usually produced their best performance in the final, so they know how to deal with pressure. And if some lads are distracted, unlikely in my opinion, they have a great bench to turn to and make changes. Last year Tipp had little pressure, as pretty much nobody gave them a chance at all. Now a lot of Tipp people think they can realistically win it, so the pressure is a lot greater. I don`t think they`ll get the same kudos this year for another "moral victory". Agree with your points 1&2, about Kilkenny being a great team, I`ve never seen a better one. "3. Were Kilkenny to lose Sunday`s Final, hindsight might not judge them as favourably" - Well obviously 5 in a row is better than 4, but they will still go down as the best team ever with their 4-in-a-row "4. Tipperary possess the squad not only most likely to dethrone this Kilkenny side, but possess a sufficient number of talented young players, that they could supercede, and exceed, the curent four-in-a-row achievement." - You`re seriously suggesting that this Tipp team can win 4 or more All-Irelands in a row? Considering that has only ever been done twice in history, surely it`s unlikely? And also Tipp are not the only county to have had some good underage teams recently. Kilkenny, Galway and Clare for example have all had notable underage success recently too. Will Tipp beat these teams every time, every year, for 5 years? Plus, Eoin Kelly and Lar Corbett are still key players for Tipp, and I can`t see them still hurling for next 4 or 5 years. Win 1 first, then talk about Tipp 5-in-a-rows. Granted it is a fine Tipp side, and generally quite young, but you`re getting a bit carried away This message has been edited - 03-sep-2010 @ 04:06
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 04:44	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Yojimbo (13,947 Posts)	Originally posted by KeepOnHurling: OK, lets assume you are serious. Yes an All-Ireland final brings pressure for both teams. Kilkenny have pressure cos it is 5, but last year going for the 4-in-a-row was still massive pressure. And Kilkenny have usually produced their best performance in the final, so they know how to deal with pressure. And if some lads are distracted, unlikely in my opinion, they have a great bench to turn to and make changes. Last year Tipp had little pressure, as pretty much nobody gave them a chance at all. Now a lot of Tipp people think they can realistically win it, so the pressure is a lot greater. I don`t think they`ll get the same kudos this year for another "moral victory". Agree with your points 1&2, about Kilkenny being a great team, I`ve never seen a better one. "3. Were Kilkenny to lose Sunday`s Final, hindsight might not judge them as favourably" - Well obviously 5 in a row is better than 4, but they will still go down as the best team ever with their 4-in-a-row "4. Tipperary possess the squad not only most likely to dethrone this Kilkenny side, but possess a sufficient number of talented young players, that they could supercede, and exceed, the curent four-in-a-row achievement." - You`re seriously suggesting that this Tipp team can win 4 or more All-Irelands in a row? Considering that has only ever been done twice in history, surely it`s unlikely? And also Tipp are not the only county to have had some good underage teams recently. Kilkenny, Galway and Clare for example have all had notable underage success recently too. Will Tipp beat these teams every time, every year, for 5 years? Plus, Eoin Kelly and Lar Corbett are still key players for Tipp, and I can`t see them still hurling for next 4 or 5 years. Win 1 first, then talk about Tipp 5-in-a-rows. Granted it is a fine Tipp side, and generally quite young, but you`re getting a bit carried away Its not correct to say that nobody gave Tipp a chance last year. Emmett Moloney has stated that he picked Tipp I myself was confidently predicting a 4 to 5 points winning margin for a couple of months leading up to the Final, even before the semi-final thrashing of Limerick, and will always maintain that with dry conditions we would have won it. You might also have noticed that after our victory over Waterford in the semi-final I said that I would reckon Kilkenny to beat us by 5 points, - with Tommy, but without Henry (or, in other words, a 10 point turnaround from my prediction of last year, to reflect that the Cats were a more ruthless and determined lot this year. or, at least, to the point of their victory over, or thrashing of, Cork ) My statement of there being a possible 4-in-a-row in this team is a valid one, for the following reasons, among others: 1 ) . The quality of hurlers in the squad. 2 ) . The impressive under-age squads of the past 3-4 years, as currently being reflected in the all-conquering, powerful, under-21 side 3 ) . The fact that a team largely composed of very young players stood toe-to-toe with a clutch of very experienced Kilkenny players in two Finals last year, and took them all the way 4 ) . The squad unity, developed by Liam Sheedy and his backroom team 5 ) . The way they`ve matured from a bunch of self-confident young lads, whose heads were, understandably, swelled by the acclaim garnered after last year`s Final, and overcome the blow to their egos and confidence that was the Cork defeat, to put them back in the frame to such an extent that even people like Sean og O Hailpin, and DJ Carey have admitted the possibility that they`re good enough to win on the day. 6 ) . The fact that, if they do indeed dethrone this Kilkenny side, it will also serve to cause many of the great players of that squad to look to retirement. As for Galway, I said after that game that 5-6 points would have been a truer reflection of the difference between the sides. if we do win this year, I believe that gap will then widen. Although it probably will, which or whether. And I don`t believe any other team comes close
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 07:33	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	OK Jim, I was wrong you`re not a wum, and have your own logic. I may not agree, but you`ve a valid viewpoint. I even agree with your prediction, Kilkenny by about 5 points sounds about right to me. The biggest problems I have with your reasoning of Tipp being a possible 4-in-a-row team are 2 ) you mention the all-conquering Tipp u21 team this year. They have still to win the final, and what about the "all-conquering" u21 teams of Clare 2009, Kilkenny 2008, Galway 2007..etc. Tipp haven`t won an U21 in 15 years. So while they may win the final, don`t expect that one all-ireland at u21 level equates to 4-in-a-row at senior (just ask Limerick! ) 3 ) you say a young Tipp team came close to dethroning an experienced Kilkenny team last year. Well they didn`t win, and also Eoin Kelly and Corbett played the games of their lives in last year`s final, and neither will be still be hurling long enough for this team to win their 4-in-a-row. Maybe there are young players to replace them, but a new Eoin Kelly isn`t easily found. 6 ) Yes, when Kilkenny do eventually lose a game, it will probably trigger a few retirements. But Kilkenny have strength in depth, u21 champions, 2008,,2006,2004, minor 2008 etc. Hickey, Shefflin, Brennan and co. would be missed certainly, but Kilkenny will still not be a soft touch by any means. But as I said, when Kilkenny are looking for a new Shefflin, Tipp will be looking for a new Eoin Kelly
EastStand (6,332 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 07:42	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
EastStand (6,332 Posts)	Good topic Yojimbo. Regarding point 3 - several people I have talked to are of the same impression. Tipp definately have talent coming through. But Kilkenny will also be there - as will Clare and Waterford in another year or two. No matter what, they`ll all be thinking of winning the 5 in a row Sunday, you can`t get away from that. The question is though, will it affect them? I don`t think it will because when that ball is thrown in, everything will go out the window until the referee calls for the ball at full time.
jokero (262 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 09:31	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
jokero (262 Posts)	Its a fair question Yojimbo. The pressure got to Kilkenny last year, the 4-in-a-row was weighing on their minds all through the championship and was evident in the somewhat uptight way they played up to last years final, and indeed in the way that they played for most of the final last year. The only time I saw Kilkenny hurling comfortably and freely last year was in the last ten minutes of the AI final, which I suppose is the time to do it. This year, I feel that pressure hasn`t been there. the attitude all year in KK has been that this year is a bonus - we`ll go out and see what happens. Of course, now that they`re actually in the final thats liable to change, but up to this match KK have been playing a helluva lot better this year than last, and its been seen over the seasons that they tend to keep their best performances for August/September - if they can play the way they did against Cork I can`t see much hope for Tipp. The injury sideshow is a definite distraction though, and it makes it difficult to predict what way the game is going ot go on Sunday.One way or the other though, I can`t see Kilkenny looking as nervous and jaded this year as they did in the final last year. I can see Tipp playing as well again, but I can`t see them playing better than Kilkenny. As regards point 3 of your argument, well, firstly, given that KK have won 7 of the last 10 AIs (and stand to win 8 of the last 11 ) , I don`t think their legacy is in any doubt, but a nice try nonetheless : ) As for a Tipp dynasty to exceed Kilkennys, you`d be better off focussing on the one and taking it from there, its a bit early yet to be overcome with an attack of the vapours!
ofiann (1,224 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 10:02	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
ofiann (1,224 Posts)	Originally posted by Yojimbo: Not in the slightest For the first time in four decades I believe, with considerable justification, that we have a side that can produce more than just what for too long has been a token `one all-Ireland per decade` Are you a Cat? Ye do have a team to win more than a token AI. at the mo i would say ye could be as good as the recent cork team. 4 in a row is crazy talk at this stage, maybe a 2 in a row and 1 other. Galway would be happy with 1 in a row over the next few years! Limerick would be happy with 0 in a row and just to have a team!!
Hurlingfan15 (82 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 10:17	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Hurlingfan15 (82 Posts)	FFS!! 4 in a row. Try and win one first.
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 10:23	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
KeepOnHurling (3,223 Posts)	When was the last time Tipp even won back-to-back All-Irelands, never mind 4-in-a-row? All very well for the Big 2 to be talking in terms of multiple All-Irelands, but for the rest of I think Hurlingfan15 is right - try to win one first!
Hurlingfan15 (82 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 10:24	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Hurlingfan15 (82 Posts)	I`d say KK are loving reading the likes of this. There seems to be more pressure on Tipp to do 4 in a row than on KK to do 5 in a row.
Dariog (474 Posts)	Posted: 03-Sep-2010 10:30	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Dariog (474 Posts)	It has been said that that the average Tipperary supporter is very arrogant. I think it is unfair to make a sweeping statement like that but unfortunately posts such as the above only go towards confirming the stereotype. Look back to 2006, Cork were going for the three in a row. I was in Croke Park believing Kilkenny could win but I certainly had no thoughts of four or five in a row. I heard no such comments from any other Kilkenny people either. Who knows what will happen on Sunday, Tipp may win. However, to suggest that, by common consent, Tipp have the squad to win four or five in a row is crazy. You should really get out and talk to some people from other counties if that`s the kind of conversations you are having at home. There was even a comment about the all conquering Tipp U21 team. If they win on Sunday week, it will be Tipp`s first U21 All Ireland in 15 years. Kilkenny have won four of the last seven. Tipp won two minors in recent years, Kilkenny are going for their second in three years on Sunday. In the two years Tipp won, they had narrow victories in the semi finals over Kilkenny both years. Don`t get me wrong, Tipp have a very talented young team with a lot of players who will be around for many years to come. The future is very bright for them. However, don`t go over the top. Kilkenny are not going away. They will be losing Henry & Eddie in the near future. However, Noel Hickey, Tommy Walsh & JJ Delaney are all the same age or younger than Lar Corbett & Eoin Kelly. Both teams will have to replace big players in the next five years. The Kilkenny minors in the recent semi final gave as good a display of forward play as I have ever seen from a minor team.

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