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Topic: Enda - a joke of a Taoiseach?
Hitch (3,644 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 09:56	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Hitch (3,644 Posts)	Is he right? Did we ALL party, did we lose the run of ourselves? We went mad? All I can say is I didn`t, but maybe I`m in a minority. What do the rest of ye think?
Larkin (4,404 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 09:59	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Larkin (4,404 Posts)	What he said is all over the world by now and he and his lackies can spin it any way they want but the entire world now thinks that every man woman and child in this country borrowed foolishly during the Celtic Tiger years. They should all be tried for treason in my opinion.
lopper (1,990 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:05	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
lopper (1,990 Posts)	Originally posted by Hitch: Is he right? Did we ALL party, did we lose the run of ourselves? We went mad? All I can say is I didn`t, but maybe I`m in a minority. What do the rest of ye think? These indignant people who criticise Enda for not starting that sentence with the word "Some" and thus accusing them of being greedy, mad borrowers, should of course be criticised themselves for not happening to notice that he didn`t say the word "All" either. There was a commentator on Morning Ireland this morning who said that he felt that Enda would come to regret the State of the Nation "You are not responsible" line, and I`d agree with that. At the time he said it I felt it was a throwaway piece of spin that actually had the potential to come back and slap him in the face. I do think both Enda and Michael Noonan`s controversial statements in the last week have been taken completely the wrong way in the press. Of course in Noonan`s case they just took one line and threw away the rest. In Enda`s case it was probably a bit more gaffe-ish, but the statement "People went mad borrowing" isn`t exactly false either. This message has been edited - 27-jan-2012 @ 10:13
Blanco (7,909 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:09	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Blanco (7,909 Posts)	Originally posted by Hitch: Is he right? Did we ALL party, did we lose the run of ourselves? We went mad? All I can say is I didn`t, but maybe I`m in a minority. What do the rest of ye think? His comments yesterday were in stark contrast to his comments in his state of the nation address to the people. As one journalist said he seems somehow to have amazingly thought that his comments yesterday would never make it to the people back home. No mention of Politicians , regulators or public officials to blame, according to Enda it is the rest of ye that were 100% at fault.
76wx1 (1,268 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:12	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
76wx1 (1,268 Posts)	He is right. As a whole we did go mad borrowing. Lenihan said the same thing and he was broadly criticised also. It`s a generalisation comment alright in fairness and there are people who didn`t go mad borrowing, like Larkin, like my parents and others but as a whole the country did go mad borrowing. There is no contradiction to this whatsoever. The banks could hurl the money out quick enough. The planning offices couldn`t keep planning permission hurled out. Land simply couldn`t be bought. The Country (ie Government ) , the banks, multinational companies, SME companies, individuals etc etc etc, couldn`t borrow enough money. It did help to lead to the crash in the economy. Look, at the end of the day, if there weren`t people queuing up to borrow money, the banks couldn`t lend it out. We did go mad borrowing . When FF were in government, FG criticised this type of commentary, & now that the boot is on the other foot, FF are criticising it. This holier than thou sh*te won`t help.
N16 (1,724 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:21	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
N16 (1,724 Posts)	Never came across to me as the sharpest tool in the box and the day of the election last year when he came out and said on national televison "Paddy likes to know" was the last straw for me. Still though he`s only a puppet in the hands of higher masters and anyone who thought that they were going to change everything this time last year was deluded, but such was the depth of emotion at the time that no one saw otherwise. The country now has two choices - dance to the tune of the IMF and Europpean policy makers in the hope that the Euro stays together and one day when we`re all dead, have some semblence of sovereignty again. Or take the chips that are on the table , leave the Euro and start again, which in ways would be unthinkable. Ireland would face savage economic hardship to take this route but done properly, things would be turned round within 10 years. Anglo`s bond holders and anyone who leant recklessly to Irish banks could go and fvck themselves. Go back to the punt and devalue it, scrap the welfare state that exists, make Irelanbd a very viable tourist destination again, strengthen the export market and make Ireland a very lucrative destination for overseas businesses to set up factories etc. Thats the hard route but thats the route I`d take. Otherwise we`ll be bending over backwards for the rest of our days.
Fintan Harris (257 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:30	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Fintan Harris (257 Posts)	How many of you know people for whom it just wasn`t enough to buy ONE foreign apartment?? Our dear leader was right, basically. "Nobody seemed to mention that the nation itself was as culpable as the South Sea Company. Nobody blamed the credulity and avarice of the people - the degrading lust of gain... or the infatuation which had made the multitude run... with such frantic eagerness into the net held out for them... These things were never mentioned. The people were a simple, honest, hard-working people, ruined by a gang of robbers..." - Charles Mackay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841 )
ofiann (1,224 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:47	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
ofiann (1,224 Posts)	I didnt go mad, i picked up 4 grands worth of shares 2 weeks ago at good value, 5% dividend keep it coming! I`ve said this before, but there was a trend for people to have bigger houses, and it made no sense. Jeesus if they had the wit to make smaller houses and spend the money on decent art it would have been better, but that would have required some intellignece. We didnt all party, we didnt all loose the run of ourselves. What bothers me about it all is that some of the people who did party the most, are paying the least!!
clubgaa (348 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:48	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
clubgaa (348 Posts)	The answer to the Topic is YES he is a joke. A boy in a mans place when he goes on foreign visits. The standard of TD`s in Ireland now is very low compared to the past. My god the only opposition is Sinn Fein. We as a nation are at an all time low in modern times.
ofiann (1,224 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:50	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
ofiann (1,224 Posts)	I am reading John Perkins book EHM, and its fascinating. The theory would be that we were deliberately lent the money, so we could be controlled, have puppet governments etc etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man According to his book, Perkins` function was to convince the political and financial leadership of underdeveloped countries to accept enormous development loans from institutions like the World Bank and USAID. Saddled with debts they could not hope to pay, those countries were forced to acquiesce to political pressure from the United States on a variety of issues. Perkins argues in his book that developing nations were effectively neutralized politically, had their wealth gaps driven wider and economies crippled in the long run. In this capacity Perkins recounts his meetings with some prominent individuals, including Graham Greene and Omar Torrijos. Perkins describes the role of an EHM as follows: Economic hit men (EHMs ) are highly-paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars. They funnel money from the World Bank, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID ) , and other foreign "aid" organizations into the coffers of huge corporations and the pockets of a few wealthy families who control the planet`s natural resources. Their tools included fraudulent financial reports, rigged elections, payoffs, extortion, sex, and murder. They play a game as old as empire, but one that has taken on new and terrifying dimensions during this time of globalization.
Rebel CNC (4,232 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 10:58	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Rebel CNC (4,232 Posts)	Poor choice of words especially in the context of his earlier speech but a lot of people did go mad - attending Bulgarian property exhibitions at hotels and coming out signed up to a ski resort property development that had yet to be built or people with fairly average or medium income with two rental properties. Groups of lads forming a property syndicate, buying a small bit of land for millions and calling themselves property developers. FFS - you didn`t need a decent regulator or a competent bank manager to tell you that this was moronic stuff. Problem is the rest of us who didn`t feel the need to avail of easy credit to buy the apartment in Florida or the brand new leased BMW now paying for those who did.
N16 (1,724 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:00	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
N16 (1,724 Posts)	I`m coming round to that way of thinking Ofiann. That the whole thing was a premeditated step to take control of countries like Ireland out of the hands of the Irish people and effectively into the hands of organisations such as the IMF. That is the upshot of all this, reckless lending knowing thre was going to be a guarantee and that Ireland would have to borrow and basically hand over powerful in everything but name. Far-fetched? I wonder.
Ozzy (1,867 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:01	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Ozzy (1,867 Posts)	I think he`s performing fairly well as Taoiseach and is certainly doing as well as any of the other Taoisigh we`ve had in the last 20 years. Turned on the radio this morning and heard that the Taoiseach was in`hot water`. Then the news reader revealed it was because he had said that people had gone mad borrowing in the boom years. FFS, that`s hardly controversial, everyone knows that much. Another example of sections of the media making a mountain out of a molehill. It`s all over the front of the tabloid version of the Indo, they never seem to stop at it. About a fortnight ago they `revealed` that Kenny owns three properties. They also made a story about Gormley trying to implement car tax legislation, turning into a glorified version of the Star.
N16 (1,724 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:03	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
N16 (1,724 Posts)	Originally posted by Rebel CNC: Poor choice of words especially in the context of his earlier speech but a lot of people did go mad - attending Bulgarian property exhibitions at hotels and coming out signed up to a ski resort property development that had yet to be built or people with fairly average or medium income with two rental properties. Groups of lads forming a property syndicate, buying a small bit of land for millions and calling themselves property developers. FFS - you didn`t need a decent regulator or a competent bank manager to tell you that this was moronic stuff. Problem is the rest of us who didn`t feel the need to avail of easy credit to buy the apartment in Florida or the brand new leased BMW now paying for those who did. Spot on there. Banks and institutions lended money to Irleand knowing the Irish banks would pass it on and the whole place went out of control. Lads with more fingers than brain cells suddenly driving top of the range cars, buying houses and few could see the end.
JohnMcCain (702 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:16	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
JohnMcCain (702 Posts)	Originally posted by Hitch: Is he right? Did we ALL party, did we lose the run of ourselves? We went mad? All I can say is I didn`t, but maybe I`m in a minority. What do the rest of ye think? Now for the facts: Here are the EXACT WORDS used: "what happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing." He did not blame all the Irish people. He has been widely misquoted. He did not say "All the Irish people went mad borrowing". I know three people who went mad borrowing and are now bankrupt,. They would listen to nobody. Now they seek to blame every one except themselves. What about all the property developers who went wallop? This message has been edited - 27-jan-2012 @ 11:18
Rebel CNC (4,232 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:18	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Rebel CNC (4,232 Posts)	Originally posted by Ozzy: I think he`s performing fairly well as Taoiseach and is certainly doing as well as any of the other Taoisigh we`ve had in the last 20 years. Turned on the radio this morning and heard that the Taoiseach was in`hot water`. Then the news reader revealed it was because he had said that people had gone mad borrowing in the boom years. FFS, that`s hardly controversial, everyone knows that much. Another example of sections of the media making a mountain out of a molehill. . Very true - media now turning the whole political world into their own celebrity reality show. Any comment that in any way deviates from the usual, bland soundbite is picked upon and RTE or Indo will wheel out some poor "ordinary citizen" with a "beal bocht" story who feels let down or affronted by the taoiseach`s/minister`s remarks. You can just imagine this pm on Radio 1 "the thing is Joe , I was earning decent money as a taxi driver back then and decided to buy a ski chalet in Bulgaria... - no Joe I`ve never been there - and the bank gave me the loan and now they want me to pay it back - I felt hurt and betrayed when I heard the taoiseach`s remarks. Sure I was only tring to put something aside for the family you know"
suirboy (776 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:21	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
suirboy (776 Posts)	The hipocrisy of some here is astounding. Lets compare and contrast the repsonses above to what was posted in response to a similar statement made by Brian Lenihan a few years ago. I have no problem with a politician being slated for making a stupid statement but the double standards of the Enda apologists is amazing.
Rebel CNC (4,232 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:31	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Rebel CNC (4,232 Posts)	Originally posted by suirboy: The hypocrisy of some here is astounding. Lets compare and contrast the repsonses above to what was posted in response to a similar statement made by Brian Lenihan a few years ago. . I actually thought Lenihan was a decent enough politician and did the best he could with the ball of cra* he was handed by Benchmarking Bertie and Biffo but his remarks were a bit more all encompassing than Kenny`s. The "we all partied" line was basically saying "we`re all responsible and we must all pay". By all means slate Enda for cowering behind the Croke Park agreement in order not to upset the sensibilities of his coalition partners or hammer him due to his Health minister going awol rather than living up to his pre election bluster but this media frenzy over a fairly watery statement is just deflecting attention from the real issues.
Ozzy (1,867 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:36	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Ozzy (1,867 Posts)	The difference is that Lenihan said we ALL partied, making everyone responsible, something Kenny didn`t do. Plus it seemed that Lenihan was trying to downplay Fianna Fáil`s role in the recession for political reasons, so he was going to get some stick.
cowpat (1,540 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 11:59	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
cowpat (1,540 Posts)	There were a lot of thick people, like really thick people, who by the grace of god sold a bit of land, or were builders, who made a lot of money. You can`t buy intelligence. You can`t buy class... I worked with one in a pub. He was so thick, he couldn`t even be a good barman in a handy out country pub. Zero cop on. Went off and became a plasterer (not all plasterers are stupid, not saying that ) . Next thing he is driving around in a brand new 4x4. It could have been the bank`s jeep, but he was making a ball of money. That was not right....
loughcurraman (1,456 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 12:06	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
loughcurraman (1,456 Posts)	It`s simply a case of a politician talking to 2 different audiences. In the State of the Nation speech every word was carefully worded ( everyone from psychologists to political analysts, to economists, to spin doctors were consulted in the drafting of that speech ( I disagree with the poster who says he was wrong to tell us "it was not your fault". In fact that was the right thing to say + the most important line in the whole speech. ) Yesterday Enda was pitching to the corporate sector so he changed his tack accordingly. He couldn`t tell them "well it was the banks + lack of proper regulation that mostly fcuked us up" cos they are concerns too close to the bone for those he was addressing so he decided to shift some of the blame back to the plebs. This message has been edited - 27-jan-2012 @ 12:32
Roberto Jordan (825 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 12:18	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Roberto Jordan (825 Posts)	I am not a huge fan of Enda and have major issues with his party and their lack of a true identity. I despair when reading newspapers on line and seeing coveney, varadkar and shatter in ministerial positions ( for variety of very different reasons......tommy Grahams letter to the irish times concerning Shatters recent twisting of historical fact was outstandijg and should be rammed down teh throat of all those filling said newspapers letter sections with rubbish on that particular topic.... ) Howver I have to be hnoest and say I find enda inoffensive at worst.....he can be a bit of a tool in my view, he is still too stiff at times and tries to compensate by ham-acting.....but in general he is not the worst sitting around that cabinet table ...... on the issue at hand, he is absolutely correct. The conspiracy theories and "why didnt someone stop us" line has to stop....why does nobody ever admit to being a bit thick? or wrong? yes the global explosion in financial trading of derivatives etc. in conjunction with the international policies of low interest rates following the dot-cpm collapse and 9/11 came together in a perfect storm.... Yes, some poeple due to family circumstances and work location etc. were backed into a corner and almsot forced by circumstance to over-leverage themselves..... But for the vast vast majority there was an alternate so SOME level of personal responsibility has to be taken both in terms of their own situation and the wider national one which is ismply the sum of all those inidvidual bad decisions.......... Finally I am going to invoke Godwin`s law and seek parrallels in history: The nuremburg defense didnt work for individuals and it certainly didnt wokr for an entire nation....to borrow that awful phrase now is the actual time we need to mature as a nation....we need to collectively look in the mirror and say never and again and mean it. ....we need to suck it up and get on wit rebuilding......in 10 years time we can be the munich of 1960 or the munich of 1930 & still be blaming everyine else.... your choice
Joe's Toes (1,091 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 12:30	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Joe's Toes (1,091 Posts)	Originally posted by Hitch: Enda - a joke of a Taoiseach? I must say, I was one who thought that Enda Kenny was never as bad as the media spin suggested, and I never thought that Brian Cowen was as `Good` as he was made out to be when he became Taoiseach. What we have in this country is a bunch of `middlin` civil servants who were former public servant trying to play with the big boys. They are suffering when compared against them. I have been giving Enda the benefit of the doubt, but Im starting to see the same pattern and mistakes being made as the last disastrous Government.. After this, the honeymoon is well and truly over, this smacks of contempt for the intelligence and concerns of the Irish people. Making us look like uncontrollable morons in the eyes of the Masters of the Universe. He was right though. We as a nation overdid it big time for many, many reasons.. But maybe thats what he should have said in his state of the nation address instead of say `You were not Responsible` as mentioned in the previous post.. Get the f-kkin finger out Enda, make the hard calls and stop spinning bullsh1t like some Tony Blair wannabe..
Jimmy Conway (364 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 12:33	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Jimmy Conway (364 Posts)	Originally posted by Ozzy: The difference is that Lenihan said we ALL partied, making everyone responsible, something Kenny didn`t do. Plus it seemed that Lenihan was trying to downplay Fianna Fáil`s role in the recession for political reasons, so he was going to get some stick. Correct
Joe's Toes (1,091 Posts)	Posted: 27-Jan-2012 12:49	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Joe's Toes (1,091 Posts)	Originally posted by N16: Never came across to me as the sharpest tool in the box and the day of the election last year when he came out and said on national televison "Paddy likes to know" was the last straw for me. Still though he`s only a puppet in the hands of higher masters and anyone who thought that they were going to change everything this time last year was deluded, but such was the depth of emotion at the time that no one saw otherwise. The country now has two choices - dance to the tune of the IMF and Europpean policy makers in the hope that the Euro stays together and one day when we`re all dead, have some semblence of sovereignty again. Or take the chips that are on the table , leave the Euro and start again, which in ways would be unthinkable. Ireland would face savage economic hardship to take this route but done properly, things would be turned round within 10 years. Anglo`s bond holders and anyone who leant recklessly to Irish banks could go and fvck themselves. Go back to the punt and devalue it, scrap the welfare state that exists, make Irelanbd a very viable tourist destination again, strengthen the export market and make Ireland a very lucrative destination for overseas businesses to set up factories etc. Thats the hard route but thats the route I`d take. Otherwise we`ll be bending over backwards for the rest of our days. Ya.. In fairness. If it was a choice like that, then I for one am prepared to roll up my sleeves and take the hard road if it means we get our sh1t together faster, better and be all the wiser for it. The Iceland route I suppose you`d call it. But that aint gonna happen. There are too many people tethered to the State`s teat, whether civil/public servants and those dependent on welfare for this to happen. No amount of tax will replace what they get now, courtesy in large part to the largesse of the ECB. Those of us who have to work in the private sector, are more used to risk and reward. They will jump. But it wont happen without a serious shock to the system.. (I dont include the financial sector in that statement, who are now used to risk&reward no matter what they do... )

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