An Fear Rua - Ivan Yates ten point plan for Education

craichoor

(882 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 12:47

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http://www.gaelport.com/nuacht?NewsItemID=7570

Entrenched vested interests are hijacking the Irish education system. Those who care about the future need to take it back

Its time to end the monopoly of educationalists determining the future of Irish education. Vested interests of religious structures, the Department of Education, third-level institutions and teacher unions have acted in pursuit of their own narrow goals. The results? Unsustainable costs, the shortest school year, the highest-paid teachers, growing illiteracy, declining academic standards and increasing reliance on migrant workers to fill jobs in technical sectors. Education policy debate is a game for insiders only.

The inevitable outcome is self-serving agendas that fail to meet current economic needs.

We might have hoped that the Minister Ruairí Quinn would be different. He was previously Labour’s opposition education spokesperson. He’s probably on his last ministerial gig, having been in finance and party leader.

His government has the largest parliamentary majority in the history of the state, with reasonable prospects of a five-year term to pioneer reform. Yet last week, he told a student audience in the University of Limerick that it was up to them to deal with poor performing and absentee tutors and lecturers. What an abject failure to tackle dud teachers. Instead of providing accountability he presides over a free pardon.

The ____________cat politics of acquiescence seem set to continue. Rarefied university presidents think they deserve to be paid more than the Taoiseach – over €200,000 per annum. Gross unapproved over-expenditure goes unpunished. The Hunt report charted a future course for higher education. It opposed dilution of Irish university status by granting any increase on the current strength of seven.

This is already above international norms based on population. The Government blithely ignores this by promising a new technological university in the southeast to placate ministers such as Howlin (Wexford ) and Hogan (Kilkenny ) . Meanwhile, no Irish university is in the world’s top 100.

Hard questions need to be addressed to our universities and institutes. Contracts for lecturers must be renegotiated. Annual tutoring hours of 560 per year or six hours per week is unacceptable . Research commitments are elusive and unfocused. Poor productivity and asset utilisation were identified in the Bord Snip Nua report, along with abolition of the National Universities of Ireland body. These recommendations gather dust while elitist personnel fail to provide value for money. Graduates receive little follow-up support for employment placement or enhancement.

But the greatest indictment of our education system is not that half of employees for the ICT sector have to be recruited abroad and brought here for Google, Yahoo and Facebook. No, it’s the decline in basic educational attainments.

OECD surveys of 15-year-olds in essential subjects of reading, maths and science since 2000, reflect poorly on our educational output. We declined from 5th to 17th in reading skills and from 16th to 26th in maths. Adult illiteracy is trending towards 20 per cent.

Finland tops these PISA surveys. Its education budget is 6 per cent of GDP. The average class size is 25 pupils. Their school year is an average of 190 days. Here it is 167 and 183 respectively between secondary and primary levels. Finnish teachers are not paid as much as their Irish counterparts. What are the differences? School entry age is seven years, with a pre-school year at six. All teachers must have graduate qualifications to be recruited. Teacher accountability is devolved to local school management.

Poor performance is not tolerated.

Successive ministers for education tend to be ministers for teachers. Upsetting teachers is off limits. Teachers may be fired if they’re found to be drunk in the classroom or fail to carry out the daily roll call. It’s okay that up to 50 per cent of secondary maths teachers are not properly qualified.

There is no insistence on changing this or a timetable for retraining to reach minimum standards. Contracted hours at 1,037 per annum for primary school teachers and 735 hours per annum of secondary level are not up for review. In the Netherlands and Britain, respective comparisons are 1,659 and 1,265 hours per year. The Croke Park

Agreement preserves higher pay. Absenteeism is accepted under the supervision and substitution schemes, costing €36 million annually.

Reform under Croke Park is extremely modest. An extra hour here and there represents tokenism. Some schools still don’t do parent teacher-meetings at times to suit parents. Sick-leave arrangements facilitate up to 21 days absence without medical certification. As close to 80 per cent of the education budget is comprised of teacher salaries and pensions, cost reduction depends on productivity adjustments.

It’s a people business, fair enough. At primary level, we could reduce school enrolments from 60,000 to 20,000 by increasing the school entry age to a minimum of five years. At secondary level, abolition of the transition year would remove one-sixth of the cost of the teaching budget. Both measures together would mean school leaving age would be unchanged. Radical thoughts are absent in Marlborough Street.

It’s important to acknowledge the dedication and professionalism of the vast majority of teachers and academics. Their commitment is undermined by a lack of uniformity throughout the service. We need to reward good teachers. Payment of increments to teachers is automatic, irrespective of performance. Incentives and rewards in the pay structure is anathema to unions.

Good schools, irrespective of whether they are private or public, should be highlighted. Comparative table s providing fair analysis should be freely available to parents who seek choice. The points system, for all its shortcomings, can focus on poor results that can be traced to underperforming teachers. The private grinds industry is testament to this reality. Who cares? Not the professional politicians. Cursory reading of Dáil education debates reveals the extent of former teachers who are TDs.

Irish society is changing rapidly. It is becoming more cosmopolitan and secular. It is also growing. Demographics indicate an increase in the school population of 20 per cent in the decade ahead. The challenge of extra demands and less resources won’t be met with “policy as usual” prescriptions. At primary level, this means consolidation of smaller rural schools. In every other walk of life, rationalisation has occurred.Half parishes cannot sustain individual schools. Improved facilities and greater subject choice are results of mergers. It’s already occurred at post-primary level, with obvious benefits.

The vexed question of consequences from declining adherence to organised religion must also be tackled. This not only means relinquishing of chairmanship and control of local school boards of management, but also alterations to the curriculum. Teaching two-and-a-half hours per week of religious studies could be done by visiting chaplains/ clergy at the end of the school day. Other vital subjects could replace it during the normal timetable . Preparation for first Communion and Confirmation, while on school property, should be conducted outside of the teaching day.

Resistance to change equals postponement of the inevitable . Church leaders such as Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin deserves support for modernisation moves.

Whilst slaying sacred cows, we must confront cultural insecurity.

Despite the critical competitive advantage of having a natural English-speaking workforce, we persist with compulsory Irish language teaching and exams. A diminishing 3 per cent of the population converse in our official tongue. Declining relevance of Irish is swept under the carpet. If both Irish and religious studies were replaced by computer studies/information technology learning, we could greatly enhance economic performance. Heresy? Let’s embrace a future of options rather than obligations.

In summary, educationalists and their specialist cheerleaders in the media believe they alone must chart the future course of Irish education. Most businesses can’t operate in such a bubble. They have to perpetually adapt to their consumers’ needs. Parents, taxpayers, jobseekers and employers observe a system that is living off its past reputation.

Tardiness in reforming the curriculum to meet job requirements is self-evident. We produce excess arts graduates and insufficient trained young adults. We preserve inefficiency and protect bad teachers. Educational systems of emerging markets of South Korea and Singapore are kicking our ass. Endless introspective chants for more money will have to be met by borrowings from creditors of last resort. Special pleading is a dialogue of the deaf, where the troika is concerned. We must integrate the needs of the economy into Irish education, because the converse is unsustainable.

Ten changes needed in Irish education

1 INCREASE SCHOOL ENTRY AGE TO FIVE AND ABOLISH TRANSITION YEAR

2 REVIEW TEACHER CONTRACTS TO INCREASE HOURS AND REMOVE INCENTIVES TO ABSENTEEISM

3 INCENTIVISE GOOD TEACHING WITH FINANCIAL REWARD

4 INTRODUCE COMPARATIVE SCHOOL LEAGUE table S

5 CONSOLIDATE SMALL RURAL SCHOOLS

6 MOVE RELIGIOUS TEACHING OUT OF SCHOOL HOURS AND OUT OF THE TEACHERS’ JOB DESCRIPTION

7 ABOLISH COMPULSORY IRISH LANGUAGE LEARNING AND REPLACE WITH COMPUTER STUDIES

8 RENEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IN HIGHER EDUCATION TO INCREASE LECTURERS HOURS AND DEFINE THEIR RESEARCH COMMITMENTS.

9 ELIMINATE OVER-EXPENDITURE IN OUR UNIVERSITIES AND INSTITUTES OF TECHNOLOGY AND REDUCE THE SALARIES OF OUR UNIVERSITY HEADS

10 REDUCE THE NUMBER OF UNIVERSITIES AND ABOLISH THE NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND

——————————————————————————————-

Ivan Yates, former cabinet minister, co-presents Breakfast on Newstalk

Foilsithe ar 14 Feabhra 2012

Foilsithe ar Gaelport.com -14 Feabhra 2012

carryharry

(4,804 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 12:50

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Originally posted by craichoor:
Ivan Yates ten point plan for Education

I can`t see this ending well!

LETRIP

(2,049 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 12:54

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Very Good at running things our Ivan

HitemHardHardHard

(1,498 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:01

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Obviously Ivan can`t count above 10 or he would have kept going....

No mention of maths..

Originally posted by LETRIP:
Very Good at running things our Ivan

craichoor

(882 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:04

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Originally posted by carryharry:

I can`t see this ending well!

Some of his points are ridiculous, some are ok, some are good. I give it a C-.

Sure it`ll stir up a bit of teacher bashing and/or friendly debate. Hopefully the latter.

Kneebreaker

(541 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:07

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League table s are a disaster. Undermine real education and lead to an inevitable stats game that sees schools educational standards decline and self-interest prevail. Not good for the individual student or the social fabric as a whole imo.

Charlotte Gael

(94 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:15

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Some interesting points raised. Not going to address the university issues but would broadly agree with the issues relating to early years education. Teacher accountability definitely needs to be looked at. Most teachers work their ass off but as with any profession there will always be those looking to avoid work at all costs. Unfortunately the structure of teacher contracts and the power of the unions only allows this to continue.

We also need to be careful about copying everything the Finns etc. do as you cannot just replicate one system and expect the same results. We need to look at a wide range of systems and pick out the best elements from each and try and adapt them to our own system.

The teaching of Irish needs to be drastically cut back and it needs to be made an elective subject at secondary level.
Hammering it home five days a week has not made us a nation of gaelgoirs so why continue? Why not teach Irish for 2/3 days a week and offer a a foreign language at primary level for 2/3 days a week? We then keep our native language alive and we also give our kids the advantage of a second language. Religion needs to be taken out of the curriculum altogether and be offered as an outside school activity. If a family is keen for their children to be brought up as practicing Catholics, they will be more than happy to devote extra time to it outside of school.

This notion of "computers` being taught as a separate subject needs to be changed also. ICT is another tool for teaching and learning. It should not be seen as a stand alone subject. Online learning environments need to be developed and made available for students and parents to access from home. This would also break the monopoly that publication companies hold over curriculum by doing away with the need for textbooks in all subject areas. A textbook for Maths is all that should be required for primary level students. Why on earth would a student need a textbook for example, history, when we live in a country steeped in historical sites and artifacts?

A bigger issue that will rear it`s head in the years to come is school leadership. At the moment, there is a dearth of suitable and willing candidates as the job of a principal is simply not an attractive one under current structures. The renumeration may be quite attractive in larger schools but why would you bother when you effectively have to be a management team of one. Smaller schools need to be merged to adequate sized schools where a proper management team of principal, VP and curriculum leader can be put in place to ensure proper standards and benchmarks are adhered to and met and teachers can also be monitored and mentored when needs be. We also need to change principal contracts to 5-7 year terms renewable upon performance and desire of both parties. Principals who choose to step down after their term for the right reasons should then not lose seniority as a result.

I also agree with the idea of making teaching a graduate programme, especially at primary level. By doing so, you should be getting candidates who wish to teach and are not doing it because they got the points for it and its a handy number. We could also go one step further and introduce specialist teachers at primary level for all subject areas, but that is wishful thinking!

Pay teachers well but make them accountable . Finally, regarding class sizes, it doesn`t matter if there are 15 or 30 kids in a class, a bad teacher will always be a bad teacher. Having said that, anymore than 30 kids without adequate management support in a school is not going to be condusive to achieving high educational standards.

clangera

(1,136 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:28

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Originally posted by craichoor:

Some of his points are ridiculous, some are ok, some are good. I give it a C-.

Sure it`ll stir up a bit of teacher bashing and/or friendly debate. Hopefully the latter.

Some of what he says is barmy but a lot is spot on, especially about 3rd level.

I have filled in for lecturing staff on maternity etc and I can say without hesitation lecturing is money for jam.

I was given 16 hours on one gig and the other lecturers were aghast - how could I have some many hours!? I had monday off and one hour on friday which I simply moved to thursday.
Lecturers are supposed to be doing published research and supervising postgrads in lieu of teaching hours but most of them are not. A senior lecturer is on around 85K and may have as little as 8 contact hours a week. they claim to need to time to correct projects etc but that`s bull\\. I used to correct nothing till April and would get it all done in a few days. They also say they need `prep` time, but once your notes and overheads are done once you dont need to do them again. There are a lot of senior lecturers out there who spend an awful lot of time on the golf course, and not at weekends either.
As for recruitment, all i will say is that it certainly `helps` to know the Head of Department.
Some support staff treat the students like dogs and it is impossible to get the least bit of change done without going through immense and pointless red-tape.

Its all a great pity, cos a lot of lecturers and support staff really do work hard and care, but, as with so many apsects of Irish cvivil service, there are many people with no interest in what they are doing bar feathering their own nest.

craichoor

(882 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:41

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Originally posted by Charlotte Gael:
Some interesting points raised. Not going to address the university issues but would broadly agree with the issues relating to early years education. Teacher accountability definitely needs to be looked at. Most teachers work their ass off but as with any profession there will always be those looking to avoid work at all costs. Unfortunately the structure of teacher contracts and the power of the unions only allows this to continue.

We also need to be careful about copying everything the Finns etc. do as you cannot just replicate one system and expect the same results. We need to look at a wide range of systems and pick out the best elements from each and try and adapt them to our own system.

The teaching of Irish needs to be drastically cut back and it needs to be made an elective subject at secondary level.
Hammering it home five days a week has not made us a nation of gaelgoirs so why continue? Why not teach Irish for 2/3 days a week and offer a a foreign language at primary level for 2/3 days a week? We then keep our native language alive and we also give our kids the advantage of a second language. Religion needs to be taken out of the curriculum altogether and be offered as an outside school activity. If a family is keen for their children to be brought up as practicing Catholics, they will be more than happy to devote extra time to it outside of school.

This notion of "computers` being taught as a separate subject needs to be changed also. ICT is another tool for teaching and learning. It should not be seen as a stand alone subject. Online learning environments need to be developed and made available for students and parents to access from home. This would also break the monopoly that publication companies hold over curriculum by doing away with the need for textbooks in all subject areas. A textbook for Maths is all that should be required for primary level students. Why on earth would a student need a textbook for example, history, when we live in a country steeped in historical sites and artifacts?

A bigger issue that will rear it`s head in the years to come is school leadership. At the moment, there is a dearth of suitable and willing candidates as the job of a principal is simply not an attractive one under current structures. The renumeration may be quite attractive in larger schools but why would you bother when you effectively have to be a management team of one. Smaller schools need to be merged to adequate sized schools where a proper management team of principal, VP and curriculum leader can be put in place to ensure proper standards and benchmarks are adhered to and met and teachers can also be monitored and mentored when needs be. We also need to change principal contracts to 5-7 year terms renewable upon performance and desire of both parties. Principals who choose to step down after their term for the right reasons should then not lose seniority as a result.

I also agree with the idea of making teaching a graduate programme, especially at primary level. By doing so, you should be getting candidates who wish to teach and are not doing it because they got the points for it and its a handy number. We could also go one step further and introduce specialist teachers at primary level for all subject areas, but that is wishful thinking!

Pay teachers well but make them accountable . Finally, regarding class sizes, it doesn`t matter if there are 15 or 30 kids in a class, a bad teacher will always be a bad teacher. Having said that, anymore than 30 kids without adequate management support in a school is not going to be condusive to achieving high educational standards.

Good reply. I`d agree with the vast majority of what you say. However, I disagree with the reduction in Irish hours.

"The teaching of Irish needs to be drastically cut back and it needs to be made an elective subject at secondary level.
Hammering it home five days a week has not made us a nation of gaelgoirs so why continue?"

Hammering maths five days a week home has not made us a nation of mathematicians. Reductio ad absurdum here, but I believe that there are more important matters that concern us than jettisoning Irish, in fact if we could get the teaching of Irish right (and that is very possible ) it would be an enormous benefit as research shows that bilingualism increases the language acquisition ability.

"Why not teach Irish for 2/3 days a week and offer a a foreign language at primary level for 2/3 days a week? We then keep our native language alive and we also give our kids the advantage of a second language."

Why not do both? Why not aim for a multilingual education system? The current government decided to abandon the MLPSI (http://www.mlpsi.ie/ ) , which I believe is ridiculous on so many levels.

" Religion needs to be taken out of the curriculum altogether and be offered as an outside school activity. If a family is keen for their children to be brought up as practicing Catholics, they will be more than happy to devote extra time to it outside of school."

I agree 100% with you. Use the 2.5 hours for a third language or extra numeracy and literacy. Perhaps also consider removal of Drama as a distinct subject and just use it as a teaching tool.

The amount of time given over to PE needs to be increased, it`s only 1 hour per week currently and will childhood obesity rates expanding as quickly as some kids waistlines, more time should be given over to PE.

Roberto Jordan

(825 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:42

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I`ll admit i am an Irish language lover....but quite what computers means in the proposal I don`t know.....is this training to become consumers of bill gates or would it be to learn some already defunct programming language and would this be taught to 6 year olds?.? Most peoples interaction with computers amounts to basic word prcesssing, the internet and e mail ......the days when a subject was justified are hone I think.....the industry solved the problem....fair enough a technical subject could be introduced at second level, but even then would the syllabus
be up to date? I would vote for better basic science teaching
first.

This is like the proposals to replace Irish with other
languages, I understand the thinking but if people currently leave
school at 18 without passable Irish, good written English with an appreciation of literature, understanding of relatively complex mathematics - even just differentiation and
integration then, unless there is an underlying personal or
social background based reason for lack of educational
attainment, I don`t think it really matters what they actually
study....we should just focus in improvement and not
details.... I am going to sound mental now, but as far as i can can see majority of the population would fit under this .....I agree with the ideas of reducing scope to first principle, I would go even further and cut the focus on extra curricular stuff....sport is good example, when I started school there was no opportunity to play hurling with club until u-14...so school played a vital role, however now kids play from much younger on outside of school........ I would go back o basics....but that is not se/y and would not be popular I think

This message has been edited - 14-feb-2012 @ 13:50

stones_off

(2,815 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:46

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Would it not be better to have a standardised text book for the entire country (at second level at least ) , partcularly for maths, english, etc. Then put this up on the website to be downloaded for free. That would reduce a lot of cost.

old seaman

(146 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 13:53

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I could not disagree with much of what he says. He is spot on as regards starting school at 5. Too many parents look on school as a baby sitting service.

While poor teachers should be dealt with, he is wrong to link poor teaching to literacy problems in most cases. First of all, since children with various disabilities were put into mainstream education ( a well intentioned policy ) , teaching has become crowd control first for many teachers. Secondly, many children are in homes where a book or newspaper (even the Sun ) is an unknown,

I agree with him especially about small schools. Parents want to keep them but they are doing their children a disservice. No teacher can teach four classes adequately.

kavvie

(289 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 14:02

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ivan .seanie fitz and the capt of the titanic would be good bedfellows.how on earth could any one listen to this man?hes a figure of fun to most sane people?

Charlotte Gael

(94 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 15:12

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Originally posted by craichoor:

Good reply. I`d agree with the vast majority of what you say. However, I disagree with the reduction in Irish hours.

"The teaching of Irish needs to be drastically cut back and it needs to be made an elective subject at secondary level.
Hammering it home five days a week has not made us a nation of gaelgoirs so why continue?"

Hammering maths five days a week home has not made us a nation of mathematicians. Reductio ad absurdum here, but I believe that there are more important matters that concern us than jettisoning Irish, in fact if we could get the teaching of Irish right (and that is very possible ) it would be an enormous benefit as research shows that bilingualism increases the language acquisition ability.

"Why not teach Irish for 2/3 days a week and offer a a foreign language at primary level for 2/3 days a week? We then keep our native language alive and we also give our kids the advantage of a second language."

Why not do both? Why not aim for a multilingual education system? The current government decided to abandon the MLPSI (http://www.mlpsi.ie/ ) , which I believe is ridiculous on so many levels.

" Religion needs to be taken out of the curriculum altogether and be offered as an outside school activity. If a family is keen for their children to be brought up as practicing Catholics, they will be more than happy to devote extra time to it outside of school."

I agree 100% with you. Use the 2.5 hours for a third language or extra numeracy and literacy. Perhaps also consider removal of Drama as a distinct subject and just use it as a teaching tool.

The amount of time given over to PE needs to be increased, it`s only 1 hour per week currently and will childhood obesity rates expanding as quickly as some kids waistlines, more time should be given over to PE.

Fair point re the teaching of Irish. I have been teaching abroad for the past 8 years or so and was unaware of MLPSI but from first impressions it seems a forward looking initiative. Fully agree with you too regarding PE. Daily lessons should be provided and we also need to broaden PE to include nutrition and healthy lifestyle choices. Following on from my early point regarding specialist teachers, PE is a subject that requires a specialist teacher at primary level as if your class teacher is not interested in PE or if that ethos does not exist in the school, then you will miss out on a vital area of learning and development.

dubliner 2

(10,823 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 15:55

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Of course Yates misses the two huge elephants in the room.

1. The forcing or otherwise of children with special needs into "mainstream" classrooms has been a total disaster.

2. And this is an absolute fact, it matters not one jot how good a teacher you are. If you are not backed up by parental involvement at home you are at nothing.

flattythehurdler

(1,220 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 15:58

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Well I always looked on religion classes as a chance to give the brain a rest. All work and no play etc.

Not Men But Giants

(623 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 16:26

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Originally posted by craichoor:
1 INCREASE SCHOOL ENTRY AGE TO FIVE AND ABOLISH TRANSITION YEAR

2 REVIEW TEACHER CONTRACTS TO INCREASE HOURS AND REMOVE INCENTIVES TO ABSENTEEISM

3 INCENTIVISE GOOD TEACHING WITH FINANCIAL REWARD

4 INTRODUCE COMPARATIVE SCHOOL LEAGUE table S

5 CONSOLIDATE SMALL RURAL SCHOOLS

6 MOVE RELIGIOUS TEACHING OUT OF SCHOOL HOURS AND OUT OF THE TEACHERS’ JOB DESCRIPTION

7 ABOLISH COMPULSORY IRISH LANGUAGE LEARNING AND REPLACE WITH COMPUTER STUDIES

8 RENEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IN HIGHER EDUCATION TO INCREASE LECTURERS HOURS AND DEFINE THEIR RESEARCH COMMITMENTS.

9 ELIMINATE OVER-EXPENDITURE IN OUR UNIVERSITIES AND INSTITUTES OF TECHNOLOGY AND REDUCE THE SALARIES OF OUR UNIVERSITY HEADS

10 REDUCE THE NUMBER OF UNIVERSITIES AND ABOLISH THE NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND

1 a ) AGREE - kids should be have their 5th birthday in the calendar year they start school.

1b ) DISAGREE - Transition year should be kept. Vital year for students to rest in between finishing junior cert exams and starting the arduous leaving cert cycle, gain workplace experience, acquire a part-time job, experience alternative channels of learning, focus on sport and mature.

2 ) DISAGREE - Increasing hours for teachers means increasing hours for kids, they are entitled to a childhood.

3 ) DISAGREE - "Good teaching" is impossible to define given the disparancies between student abilities.

4 ) DISAGREE - This will lead to elitism, ulterior motives and deprive many average students the chance to learn smarter ones as, on average, the smarter ones will have located elsewhere.

5 ) MIXED - Good idea numbers-wise but how about logistics? Parents having to drop kids to school half an hour away in the morning before work on bad roads etc.

6 ) DISAGREE - Catholicism should not be forced upon anyone by the State through indoctrination. However, an balanced and unbiased approach to teaching students about the major religions in the world would be invaluable. Like it or not religion is everywhere and kids should not grow up oblivious to it. Religion as a subject should teach the facts of Catholicism for one section of the year, then Protestantism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc in an even proportion with no influencing as to which is "best"

7 ) DISAGREE - The most ludicrous of all. Gaeilge is a vital part of our cultural identity, history and social fabric. Utterly preposterous. Mona bhfuil gaeilge agat...

8 ) AGREE - Lecturers, while they have worked like dogs studying to get to that place, have it so unbelievably easy. Minimal hours, no real "research" requirements, ease of absenteeism, little accountability and excellent pay.

9 ) DISAGREE - Investment in I.T. and general infrastructure is vital for colleges to prosper and even to survive. University heads are crucial as they help attract students, investment, foreign exchange programmes and develop policies that influence our youth.

10 ) DISAGREE - Universities are key to the indigenous economy and each has its own rich history and unique opportunities.

Education is one of the few things Ireland has going for it, don`t ruin it.

manfromdelmonte

(2,268 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 17:48

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As a teacher, I agree with a lot of his points

1 - Yes. But proper child care is needed before they enter school. the cost of this is far too restrictive to a lot of parents. so the infant teachers spend the first year teaching them things they should already be doing
2 - Yes. But if you take the cost of marternity leave out of the substitution costs it falls to a very low amount. Teaching is now a female profession. Look it up Ivan! We can`t we use the extra Croke Park hours to benefit the children directly????? Instead of using it for endless staff meetings. We could take all sport and music out of the normal day and teach it after school. Thus leaving more hours for Maths, Reading, Writing, Irish, IT, SESE etc
3 - Yes. Generally it is already done. Better teachers are geneally better educated, who get jobs easier and so are rewarded financially. Though I can see at 2nd level it being important.
4 - No. Because no two schools are alike. A Private school has a HUGE advantage over a Public school next door due to restrictive enrollment and the fees. At primary, what test would you use? And then teachers will start teaching for the test and leaving out special needs kids to hike up the percentages. Schools are not just for churning out students who get high grades.
5 - No. Why? Because you would have to build new schools with well equipped classrooms and provide transport to the schools. Most small schools are in good condition and are in the areas where they are needed.
6 - Yes. I have Communion class. It takes up a good deal of time. Up to 30 mins per day 3 times a week. Let the parish look after that either through paying teachers extra to do it after school, using lay pastors or parents.
7 - No. updete the Irish being taught to 75% spoken classes (its going that way ) . Using technology Irish and IT can be taught together. Children can learn to communicate through Irish using IT.
8 - Yes. They are overpaid and underworked. Same as all teachers really.
9 - Yes.
10 - Yes. Too many colleges in Dublin. Merge the admin staff and academic staffing. Focus on DCU, UCD, Trinity and DIT. In Galway, merge the two colleges, same in Cork. the NUI is such a waste of money.

and yes, the special needs education has to be finally tackled.
either keep them in the classroom and see general education standards reduce all for the cause of `inclusion` (as the teacher does not have the time to devote to the special needs )
or refocus special education needs back into special schools with specialist teaching for these children.

This message has been edited - 14-feb-2012 @ 17:51

old seaman

(146 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 19:27

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Originally posted by dubliner 2:
Of course Yates misses the two huge elephants in the room.

1. The forcing or otherwise of children with special needs into "mainstream" classrooms has been a total disaster.
2. And this is an absolute fact, it matters not one jot how good a teacher you are. If you are not backed up by parental involvement at home you are at nothing.

As I said in my earlier post, I fully agree on these two points.

This message has been edited - 14-feb-2012 @ 19:29

Hurling Veteran

(202 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 20:02

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My sister is a teacher so I am familiar with the system from discussing it with her. Education is like everything in life in that children have to work to reap rewards. The Department of Education revamped the curriculum a few years back against the better judgement of the teachers and tried to bring a playschool element into it instead of sticking to the old tried and trusted methods that worked for years.

Now they are complaining about literacy and numeracy but what did they expect when they wanted music and drama taught as often as English and Maths. All Ivan Yates and his cohorts are doing is putting an end to GAA in schools and attempting to create a battery hen factory in every town. The aim is to have supersized primary schools only and at locations where there are secondary schools.

You can force feed battery hens but Education is a little different.

scelp

(1,695 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 21:56

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Two point plan for Ivan Yates:

Put on a pair of really heavy boots

Then have a go at walking across the River Slaney.

Should work as well as your unrequired education plan but at least the world would be a slightly better place

busdriver

(999 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 23:14

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i notice that ivans contention that 80% of the education budget is taken up in teachers pay and pensions.
if this is in fact true then obviously the cuts need to be made significantly deeper before the education system can stop being a gravy train for the fairer sex and start being what it was meant to be in the first place.

HitemHardHardHard

(1,498 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 23:37

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What did you think it was being spent on?

Originally posted by busdriver:
i notice that ivans contention that 80% of the education budget is taken up in teachers pay and pensions.
if this is in fact true then obviously the cuts need to be made significantly deeper before the education system can stop being a gravy train for the fairer sex and start being what it was meant to be in the first place.

Larkin

(4,404 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 23:40

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Jaysus Ivan, there must be a grand view from the top of that tower all the same.

giant reed

(174 Posts)

Posted: 14-Feb-2012 23:41

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The Department have made moves to try and address the literacy and numeracy issue

Taken from Circular Letter 0056/2011

5.2 Immediate adjustment to time for literacy and numeracy
Pending the adjustments to the existing recommended timeframe by the NCCA and with effect from January 2012 all primary schools will be required to:

• increase the time spent on the development of literacy skills, particularly in the first language of the school, by one hour overall for language (Irish and English ) per week (i.e. to 6.5 hours for infants with a shorter day, and to 8.5 hours per week for students with a full day )

• increase the time spent on mathematics by 70 minutes per week to 3 hours and 25 minutes per week for infants with a shorter day, and to 4 hours and 10 minutes per week for students with a full day.
You are requested to make provision for these arrangements in your school through a combination of approaches such as:

• integrating literacy and numeracy skills with other curriculum areas

• using some or all of discretionary curriculum time for literacy and numeracy activities

• re-allocating time spent on the other subjects in the curriculum to the development of literacy and numeracy

The quote above doesn`t really change much in my opinion. Discretionary time is used mostly for the core subjects anyway.

This might not go down well with some people but If I had my way I`d be chopping the time used for Music, Drama and Art, which currently stand at an hour a week for each.

That`s the same time as S.E.S.E subjects.

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