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Topic: Clare v Kilkenny Sun 22th April
fine weather
(464 Posts)
Posted: 10-Apr-2012 23:47
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This is a great opportunity for Clare putting themselves against the best, seen now that the pressure is off having secured division 1A status for next year.

The management and players have done really well thus far, their fitness levels are better than they have been in years, the management have also had the opportunity of giving match time to several players during the league and now a reasonably strong panel. One cannot argue with the management selections either, having gone with players inform eg Enda Barrett.
The one thing that is raising a lot of debate in hurling circles is the running and short passing game. We are told it is here to stay and that we have to have patience. This must not stop us debating it and highlighting the deficiencies in it. I think with the players we have and their fitness, ball winning skills, pacy young forwards, this type of game is holding them back and preventing them from showing their true potential. I think if the goalkeeper and backs adopt this against Kilkenny we will be destroyed. I don't know where it is going, as it could have cost us the game last sat against Limerick only for 3 top class saves from the goalkeeper. Cork the architects of this are moving away from it. I don't think it is suited to Clare now either, rant over.
Blanco
(7,909 Posts)
Posted: 10-Apr-2012 23:53
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As I said on on another thread this is a free game for Clare with no real pressure or expectations on them , but they should treat it as a championship game , it's worth 20 training sessions for them to have a high intensity game here.

Couldn't be better preparation for the Waterford game at the same venue , even if that game is still a good bit away time wise.



BeTimberin
(2,458 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 00:06
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Jez fine weather you are fairly negative in the face of Davy's results this year.

As you say, the pressure is off in this game. I dont think there is any expectancy(much like the game against Tipp last year) nor would there really be much confidence but for the most part Clare can come into this game off the back of a good run of games. This is about 3 to 4 steps up from that with respect to everyone including ourselves. Kilkenny rarely take it easy on anyone.

I'll write a more detailed piece closer to the time but just on the short passing - i think a lot of people are cutting this because of the interceptions which have lead to scores. For anyone who has a hurling brain who watched Clare last year i will gladly take the short passing game that is being used this year. On how many occassions was possession fcuked away last year with poor distribution out of defence? The whole point of a short passing/support game is to provide a more varied decent supply of ball to the forwards. This has been evident in nearly all games this year as anyone i have spoken to have agreed that ball being sent in was of much better quality - i have witnessed it in the short clips i've seen of the Clare side on TV and also from the first game against Limerick.

Im all for Davy adopting this gameplan in order to better use possession providing he adapts it over time and looks to develop other options as more material becomes available to him. I am convinced he will aswell.
Bannerabu
(549 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 00:10
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FFS will give us bit more time to bask in Saturdays win, was hoping to delay even thinking about de Cats til the W/E at least. Now that you have brought it up i cant see us coming within 10 points of KK on Saturdays performance. While our fitness won out last week it wont count for much against KK because KK will not leave us in it and they probably wont run out of steam with 20 to go.

But on the plus side we ll have the monkey off our backs and wont have any pressure on us as we achieved what we wanted out of the league. Hopefully the lads will put in a creditable performance and will be interesting to see how we measure up to the best.

C'MON DE BANNER
fine weather
(464 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 00:36
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Originally posted by BeTimberin:
Jez fine weather you are fairly negative in the face of Davy's results this year.As you say, the pressure is off in this game. I don't think there is any expectancy(much like the game against Tipp last year) nor would there really be much confidence but for the most part Clare can come into this game off the back of a good run of games. This is about 3 to 4 steps up from that with respect to everyone including ourselves. Kilkenny rarely take it easy on anyone.I'll write a more detailed piece closer to the time but just on the short passing - i think a lot of people are cutting this because of the interceptions which have lead to scores. For anyone who has a hurling brain who watched Clare last year i will gladly take the short passing game that is being used this year. On how many occasions was possession fcuked away last year with poor distribution out of defence? The whole point of a short passing/support game is to provide a more varied decent supply of ball to the forwards. This has been evident in nearly all games this year as anyone i have spoken to have agreed that ball being sent in was of much better quality - i have witnessed it in the short clips i've seen of the Clare side on TV and also from the first game against Limerick.Im all for Davy adopting this gameplan in order to better use possession providing he adapts it over time and looks to develop other options as more material becomes available to him. I am convinced he will aswell.

BeTimberin, I don't want to come across as negative, but from watching most of the games this year, we have started off using the running and hand passing and have changed or adopted it less when it has been found not to be working, by all means use the ball intelligently. We have over used it in defence and have had to move away from it to get a result in most of the games and the question I am asking why not adopt the style that we used in the last 20mins against Limerick, Antrim etc which got us results. Remember it was fast quality ball into the forwards that got us most of the scores sat night and in a lot of the other games as well. The only game it worked well was in the first game against a very unfit Limerck. All teams are using a certain amount of hand passing but we are overdoing it to the point of it being embarrassing.
Banner1995
(474 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 01:33
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As it stands, KK should beat us with a bit to spare and the dangerous thing is that they rarely if ever do complacency! That said, we are very fit for this time of year, so i would hope we play it open as much as we can cos if we try and play them physically we are are doomed. I dont mean stand off them, obviously we need to match them but we cant go down the route Fitz took in 08 final and again last eyar in the AI Semi. Tipp proved in 09 and 10 finals that the best way, if there is one at all, to play the cats is to concetrate on your own game n try and stretch them.

after all that waffle, i still cats by 7-10 but great prepation for us before waterford, which will be a cracker!!

roll on the summer and hurling, you just cant beat it!
Hidalgo
(2,114 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 08:55
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The short passing game out of defence is fine except for one major problem in the Clare make-up. We don't have enough physical strong players to break the tackle when a lad takes it into contact. This is something teams like Dublin and KK can do as they have the type of player able to so, we have pacy players but just not physically empowering enough.

If a corner or wing back or whatever gets a short puck-out, why always go on a big solo run into a heap of opposition players, if he has enough time to do that, put the head up and if theres good movement up front, fast ball into space, I'd prefer to lose it 20 yards from the KK goal than 20 from the Clare goal. Limerick punished us with points, KK will o so with goals.
That said, whet we've been doing the last few seasons is a waste of time, simply pumping high aimless ball into a set of forwards that will get out muscled.

More variation is called for IMO. We seem to have the idea that every score needs a build-up passage involving a few passes. If a forward gets on a loose breaking ball and is in a position to shoot, then do so, it can take as long to have a look to see a spare man as a quick look at the posts.
bluesky
(559 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 11:09
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from what i have seen so far in this seasons league kk by 14 points
N16
(1,724 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 11:17
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There's no pressure at all on the aldas going into this game and they got the monkey off their back the other night in Lierick when there was real pressure on and they had to come from 8 points down. Limerick hurled with real intensity for a lot of that game and thats maybe why we looked out of sorts but Limerick just couldnt keep that intensity going and we took over.
The KK game is a totally different battle altogether andn they'll be able to go into it and pit themselves against the top team in Ireland see what they learn from it. I dont think KK will hammer us and I think its a lazy assessment to say that. We have only lost 1 game all year (to Tipp in the WC final) and going into the KK game with 6 out of 6 in the league including 2 games to Limerick in the Gaelic Grounds.
theblack&amber
(593 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 15:10
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I can't really see Clare winning this match, and even more so because Kilkenny will want to make amends for their league final humiliation last year. Not to mention as well Kilkenny have tried out quite a few players in the league, these guys will be determined to state their credentials for championship spot and the only way to do that is win a league title.

That said I won't write off Clare either. Say what you want about him, Fitzy gets his teams in shape as they look a fit side, he's giving a chance to some handy hurlers starting that came through from the good minor/U21 teams and crucially they've have played well in the league so far. As was pointed out by other posters, the monkey of securing 1A status is off their back as well as anything else is a bonus, they have nothing to lose really they know even if the ship a beating against Kilkenny they wouldn't be the first to do so either. And as was also pointed out, Clare will use this game as a barometer of where they are and need to be for the championship.

Kilkenny to win by 6-9 points.
Hidalgo
(2,114 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 15:38
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I would imagine that Davy will attempt to keep things defensive and remain competitive to avoid a worse case scenario of getting blown out of the water early on.

If any Clare player can do well in his own little individual battle Vs his opposite number, that will be a great confidence boost for that player.

Clare to keep it competitive, hopefully.
bluesky
(559 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 15:49
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well remember 1995 kilkenny hammer the daylights out of clare in that years league final, Clare went on to win the all ireland after, i am sure Davy is saying the same to this bunch
of players.
theblack&amber
(593 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 16:08
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Originally posted by bluesky:
well remember 1995 kilkenny hammer the daylights out of clare in that years league final, Clare went on to win the all ireland after, i am sure Davy is saying the same to this bunch
of players.

Different times, different men, different circumstances.

That Clare side had been building nicely for a few years by then, had some of the greatest players to ever hold a hurl and had a very bad off day against a Kilkenny side that was arguably third best in Leinster.

This time around they're basically a brand new team, with mostly young unproven players against what is the greatest hurling team of all time. World of difference.

Basically I don't think Davy would be saying to his players if you lose here you can still win the AI, that would be just silly and there's no point in putting undue pressure on a group of young lads by judging them against past legends.

My guess is he'll say we'll go out, tear into them, hurl as best, as hard and as clever as we can and win or lose, go from there for the championship.
hurling immortal
(267 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 17:02
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i dont think the result is important..(clare probably have zero chance of winning) but i do hope they acquit themselves well and avoid a hammering.(especially of galway proportions) he should certainly find out alot more about his players and i would be happy enough with a 7 point loss or less..(i know that sounds defeatist)
Bannerabu
(549 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 17:12
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Defeatist maybe but true, dont think too many will travel to Thurlas expecting to win
Hitch
(3,644 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 17:15
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Originally posted by hurling immortal:

(clare probably have zero chance of winning)

i would be happy enough with a 7 point loss or less..(i know that sounds defeatist)

Sounds defeatist ...never!


fine weather
(464 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 17:48
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The management and player have done very well, have worked very hard and I don't underestimate the fact that they have won the Div 1b league final, but I do think, and I have no doubt they will look at the strategy at this stage. I am quite sure the management are not happy with the way the running, passing strategy out of defence is working and also players in the forwards using this strategy as an opt out of taking the responsibility of going for a score.
This up coming game against Kilkenny is a huge opportunity for players and management to test themselves against the best. The performance will be more important that the result.
tv1
(237 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 18:10
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How many of the Clare team would make a Kilkenny practice session in Nolan Park,genuine question.6 to 10 maybe?
busdriver
(999 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 21:36
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personally i have no idea what davy does or dosent say to his players and i doubt that anyone on here knows for sure either.
that said i am travelling to thurles sunday week expecting 15 claremen and subs to give a good account of themselves in preparation for the waterford game .
then we get a chance to have a look at the cork v tipp game and our probable opponents in the munster final.
we go down without any team pressure but lets not forget that there is some individual pressure on players as they try and secure a starting slot v waterford.
i wonder will donal tuohy get the nod between the sticks and i assume that fergal lynch will return to the half forward line.
come on the banner
bp
(2,408 Posts)
Posted: 11-Apr-2012 22:02
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Originally posted by tv1:
How many of the Clare team would make a Kilkenny practice session in Nolan Park,genuine question.6 to 10 maybe?

.....that old chestnut, and it's companion that the second best team in Ireland is the Kilkenny subs.
Well Tipp disproved the latter one in '10, and the Dubs put six goals past them last month, they're the best team in the country no doubt, but that doesn't mean that they're unbeatable or that they should be treated as such.
It's not really relevant as to how Clare many players Brian Cody would select for his panel, they're unavailable to him, and they're the best here in Clare - and while logic would dictate that they are not atthe top level at the moment, they possess a lot of potential and promotion into the top six should aid their progression. Likewise a game against the top team in the land where they will go in unburdened by any expectation can only be beneficial, they've nothing to lose so why not tilt at that windmill.
yankeelad
(5,535 Posts)
Posted: 12-Apr-2012 19:33
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I am sure Davy and the lads will do just fine.Noone expects them to win this match but at the same time I would look for us to go hell for leather and see how we measure up after the final whistle.As someone else already said this match is gravy and better than 10 challenge matches and if we throw everything into it there will be no regrets and shur anything could happen.Now go out there and whip some KK ass lads
egpower
(2 Posts)
Posted: 12-Apr-2012 20:27
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Originally posted by busdriver:

that said i am travelling to thurles sunday week expecting 15 claremen and subs to give a good account of themselves in preparation for the waterford game .
then we get a chance to have a look at the cork v tipp game and our probable opponents in the munster final.

Didn't realise ye were in a Munster Final? Congrats. I must mention it to Ken when I see him....
BeTimberin
(2,458 Posts)
Posted: 14-Apr-2012 17:42
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Must admit im sick of people building up our Munster Final appearance chances at this early a stage.

Writing off Waterford is bad enough - look at the amount of Munster Finals they've appeared in since the turn of the century in addition to their match day experience, number of All Stars in their squad and the finish they put down in the league...........but most people are forgetting that we have 2 and a half months to go before we play them - injury potential is huge and we might get a severe lesson next weekend to give us a better indicator of our chances.

In truth, we have a long way to go yet before we can start pushing our chances of beating Waterford. I would be confident that we are going well enough at this stage(certainly better than we had 2 years ago when we ran them to 5 points) but all in all outside of our Division 1B league success we hav e little of nothing to shout about and the league win will mean little to the Déise!
fine weather
(464 Posts)
Posted: 14-Apr-2012 23:25
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Originally posted by BeTimberin:
Must admit im sick of people building up our Munster Final appearance chances at this early a stage.Writing off Waterford is bad enough - look at the amount of Munster Finals they've appeared in since the turn of the century in addition to their match day experience, number of All Stars in their squad and the finish they put down in the league...........but most people are forgetting that we have 2 and a half months to go before we play them - injury potential is huge and we might get a severe lesson next weekend to give us a better indicator of our chances.In truth, we have a long way to go yet before we can start pushing our chances of beating Waterford. I would be confident that we are going well enough at this stage(certainly better than we had 2 years ago when we ran them to 5 points) but all in all outside of our Division 1B league success we have little of nothing to shout about and the league win will mean little to the Déise!

I agree, just also remember we were out hurled by Limerick for most of the game where as last year and the year before Clare were the better team for most of both of those finals losing both matches by giving away soft goals towards the end. This year Clare were fitter and showed real character and Keats their heads to dig out a result. No room for complacency or over confidence. The match against Kilkenny will put to bed any complacency I would think.
LETRIP
(2,049 Posts)
Posted: 15-Apr-2012 09:18
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That Clare side had been building nicely for a few years by then

Jaysus you are a gas man BlacknAmber

93 was "building nicely" was it

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