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Is Kilkenny's dominance on hurling permanent
Club Delegate
(313 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 10:17
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Have we reached the stage where Kilkenny's stranglehold on hurling is more or less permanent.
Its pretty sobering for the rest that yesterdays hammering to Cork was administered without their best player of the last decade, Henry Shefflin and without their current talisman Richie Power.
This is effectively Cody's fourth team in his thirteen year tenure, the transition just seems to be seamless now all the time. With counties like Wexford, Offaly, Clare & Limerick unable to compete at the highest level and Kilkenny and Tipperary (to a lesser extent), the only county where hurling is pre-eminent, these are worrying time for the continuance of hurling as a competitive sport at the highest level.
Hidalgo
(2,114 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 10:31
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No, nothing lasts forever and teams go in cycles. Som cycles do last a long time. Similar to any sport, when a team has such a dominant position, it looks like they'll be top dogs till the end of time but the wheel always turns.
However, they'll nearly always be competitive, even when they eventually slip from the top spot, they won't be too far away from it. That will make their eventual re-rise easier and shorter.
rev it up
(378 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 11:38
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As long as Cody is there kk's dominance is permanent. When he goes there may be a period of transition and I emphasise the word may. But as hidalgo says they will never slip far.
I am 33 years old and for every championship season I can recall going back to the mid 80's Kilkenny have been in the top 2 or 3 bookies favourites at the start of every championship.
Cork and Tipp have occasionally slipped out of that bracket over the same period .
ProjX
(726 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 11:48
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Originally posted by rev it up:
As long as Cody is there kk's dominance is permanent. When he goes there may be a period of transition and I emphasise the word may. But as hidalgo says they will never slip far.
I am 33 years old and for every championship season I can recall going back to the mid 80's Kilkenny have been in the top 2 or 3 bookies favourites at the start of every championship.
Cork and Tipp have occasionally slipped out of that bracket over the same period .
Cody has been manager for 13 years and it takes a lit of commitment and sacrifice to do the role.
theblack&amber
(593 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 11:57
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No, nowhere near it.
At underage Dublin have become serious rivals in Leinster, Clare, Tipp, Galway are producing good players and good, successful teams in recent years, while Limerick, Waterford and Cork are developing good players as well.
This Kilkenny side is something else, and may be the standard for another few seasons but they are the greatest side the GAA has ever seen and unlikely to be matched again for a very long time, if ever.
But the day will come when they wont be the best anymore, or have teams capable of beating them regularly. Eventually will come the day when Kilkenny are no longer successful, maybe even this year/next year.
There's two fundamental laws in sport after all, dominance shifts from one to the other and time catches up on all. I guess that's what makes this current side so remarkable and unlikely to be matched, the fact that they've managed to remain so dominant over such a long time.
frasiercrane
(1,843 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 12:07
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They will always be in top 3 in the country and so even if they do go fall back a bit they will probably be able to pick up 3 all irelands per decade.
Kilkenny can pace themselves most years as with Offaly and Wexford falling behind badly every second year they effectively have a bye to the all Ireland quarter final in that year.
My father was talking to a brother of a former Kilkenny hurler and he was saying the Cody has an easy enough job as all the players come through the underage system in Kilkenny hurling and they operate under a system similar to senior side so that when they move up to senior level they know what is fully expected of them at that level and are very well prepared for the demands of senor intercounty hurling before they even make the senior team.When you see the seamless transition some Kilkenny hurlers make from underage to senior it would seem that Kilkennys underage work is a step ahead of everybody elses.looking at the likes of Paul Murphy and Colin Fennelly you wouldnt think they ahve only been senior for a couple of years
rebelrebel30
(8,531 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 12:14
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Originally posted by rev it up:
As long as Cody is there kk's dominance is permanent. When he goes there may be a period of transition and I emphasise the word may. But as hidalgo says they will never slip far.
I am 33 years old and for every championship season I can recall going back to the mid 80's Kilkenny have been in the top 2 or 3 bookies favourites at the start of every championship.
Cork and Tipp have occasionally slipped out of that bracket over the same period .
Steady there, i agree they are always competitive but lads pre 2000 - only 12 years ago, Kilkenny had won all irelands only in 1982,1983,1992,1993 and suffered some big beatings by Offaly along the way so thats 4 titles in nearly 20 years. This is a golden age for Kilkenny and Codys the reason why in my book - if and when he goes i dont think they will have anything like the success now of 7/8 all irelands in 10/11 years.
Legalalien
(1,681 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 12:35
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Nothing lasts forever. Kilkenny have been blessed to have Henry, Tommy, and JJ come along at the same time when normally you would possibly only have one player of their calibre in any team. This team peaked in07/08. Whilst they are still top they aren't as dominat as they have been. Tipp, Dublin and Galway could all beat us this year and Limerick and Clare are teams with young players coming through. Under age KK haven't been as dominant and this will eventually come through at senior level.
In all honesty a non tipp kk final would be good for hurling.
Hitch
(3,644 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 12:44
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Originally posted by Legalalien:
Nothing lasts forever.
...except Herpes ...allegedly!
bluesky
(559 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 12:57
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Watching hurling since 1977 first game was Clare hurling the sh.t out of us in a league semil final in thurles offaly we were only coming at the time.
but i never seen a bad kilkenny team in that time right they
might not have won the all ireland but who beats them does or kilkenny themselfs were beaten in the final.
i think why they are so dominance at the moment is teams like offaly,wexford,galway,and throw in cork and clare are not as strong as they were in the 80's 90's and early 2000's.
they are their for the last 127 years and they will be at the top or there abouts for the next 127 years.
South Limerick Referee
(16,613 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 13:33
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The simplicity of his methods, and the significance given to games in training are things that other coaches and trainers do not embrace for some reason.
If Cody goes, they could lose that but if he stays for 10 years, he will continue to be competitive. Look at the players he has lost since he has started out and he has still remained competitive.
Originally posted by rev it up:
As long as Cody is there kk's dominance is permanent. When he goes there may be a period of transition and I emphasise the word may. But as hidalgo says they will never slip far.
I am 33 years old and for every championship season I can recall going back to the mid 80's Kilkenny have been in the top 2 or 3 bookies favourites at the start of every championship.
Cork and Tipp have occasionally slipped out of that bracket over the same period .
Hidalgo
(2,114 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 13:38
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Originally posted by frasiercrane:
They will always be in top 3 in the country and so even if they do go fall back a bit they will probably be able to pick up 3 all irelands per decade.Kilkenny can pace themselves most years as with Offaly and Wexford falling behind badly every second year they effectively have a bye to the all Ireland quarter final in that year.My father was talking to a brother of a former Kilkenny hurler and he was saying the Cody has an easy enough job as all the players come through the underage system in Kilkenny hurling and they operate under a system similar to senior side so that when they move up to senior level they know what is fully expected of them at that level and are very well prepared for the demands of senor intercounty hurling before they even make the senior team.When you see the seamless transition some Kilkenny hurlers make from underage to senior it would seem that Kilkennys underage work is a step ahead of everybody elses.looking at the likes of Paul Murphy and Colin Fennelly you wouldnt think they ahve only been senior for a couple of years
it's a little bit easier to blend in a few new lads when the squad already contains the likes of JJ, Tommy Walshe, Larkin, Shefflin etc. That way there's less expected of the newer players, they don't have to carry the can from day 1 when they're only 19-20.
Richie Power being a good example, he's been on the team now for a while, but it's only recently he's had to come to the fore as one of the leaders. If a talent like that was in Clare/Wexford etc, he'd be expected to carry the forwards from the 1st day he played senior.
Also, a lot of the current KK dynasty was built on underage success in the 90s, 1o Leinster titles in a row AFAIK, that dominance has been broken to an extent by Dublin.
carryharry
(4,804 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 15:07
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No.
The fact that Kilkenny are so dominant at the moment is more down to the mental state of other Counties imo.
They have had at their disposal a golden generation of hurlers similar to the Tipp team of the 60's. Why they are continuing to be dominant is more or less down to the current state of Leinster hurling. Back in the 60's the Tipp teams had one chance, if they were caught they were out. Nowadays if KK are caught out there is the back door route.
As said above they have so many top class players who just happened to come along at the same time. Will we ever see players of the Shefflin, Delany and Walsh mould's come along together again?
Tipperary proved that with the right game plan and most importantly hunger they are beatable. The right game plan imo is fast low ball and movement. Yesterday Cork played straight into Kk hands and payed the price.
Kk are not going to wane imo, but others are going to catch up sooner or later. Who its gong to be is the difficult question.
rebelrebel30
(8,531 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 16:57
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Originally posted by carryharry:
No.The fact that Kilkenny are so dominant at the moment is more down to the mental state of other Counties imo.They have had at their disposal a golden generation of hurlers similar to the Tipp team of the 60's. Why they are continuing to be dominant is more or less down to the current state of Leinster hurling. Back in the 60's the Tipp teams had one chance, if they were caught they were out. Nowadays if KK are caught out there is the back door route.As said above they have so many top class players who just happened to come along at the same time. Will we ever see players of the Shefflin, Delany and Walsh mould's come along together again?Tipperary proved that with the right game plan and most importantly hunger they are beatable. The right game plan imo is fast low ball and movement. Yesterday Cork played straight into Kk hands and payed the price. Kk are not going to wane imo, but others are going to catch up sooner or later. Who its gong to be is the difficult question.
Agree fast low ball and movement its the way. Yesterday cork just ditered and when they did hit ball it was in the air for a Kilkenny paw.
manfromdelmonte
(2,268 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 17:28
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The key to their dominance is the schools, if you ask me. They don't have a third level college to develop players like waterford, limerick, galway etc
They have two top class hurling nursaries winning titles at A level. Along with 2/3 other schools playing B colleges hurling.
Other counties need to break that dominance to make inroads and stop kilkenny teams winning titles and competing in finals.
South Limerick Referee
(16,613 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 17:40
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Kilkenny were poor enough in 1996 but it was the old knockout system. Videos I have would appear to indicate that they were also poor in 1990 even though they won the league that year. 1988 also seems to be another poor year for them. Other than that they have always been there or thereabouts.
Originally posted by bluesky:
Watching hurling since 1977 first game was Clare hurling the sh.t out of us in a league semil final in thurles offaly we were only coming at the time.but i never seen a bad kilkenny team in that time right they
might not have won the all ireland but who beats them does or kilkenny themselfs were beaten in the final.i think why they are so dominance at the moment is teams like offaly,wexford,galway,and throw in cork and clare are not as strong as they were in the 80's 90's and early 2000's.they are their for the last 127 years and they will be at the top or there abouts for the next 127 years.
Blanco
(7,909 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 18:02
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Originally posted by rev it up:
I am 33 years old and for every championship season I can recall going back to the mid 80's Kilkenny have been in the top 2 or 3 bookies favourites at the start of every championship.
Cork and Tipp have occasionally slipped out of that bracket over the same period .
During the vast majority of your life Cork have led the role of honour in senior Hurling AI's.
Hitch
(3,644 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 18:06
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Originally posted by Blanco:
During the vast majority of your life Cork have led the role of honour in senior Hurling AI's.
I remember an 'oul fella at a match one day saying; "thank God Kilkenny weren't hurling in the 1800's."
Some craic!
the Goan
(245 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 18:07
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Kilkenny will continue to dominate, just as they have done so in Leinster for years. Cody has them working and playing as a team. The corner forwards tackle as hard as the corner backs. Some manager. As my old coach used to say there is no I in team.
Cork as yesterday showed are 2-3 years back. JBM has been saying same since he took over again. May be he was being honest and not being a Cute corkman.
Tipp are probably the nearest, however they as a team appear lazy. With Sheedy they tackled and hunted in packs, now they seem lazy or not bothered. If they get to meet KK in AI final, i think they will win (but probably will not be there).
Galway: good for one game, could push KK in Leinster final, but can not but a run together.
Good individuals, Anthony Cunningham might get them playing as a team.
Clare: They will have passion, and will tackle like tipp used to, good young team. Could be contenders next year or 2.
Dublin: Big and strong, especially winning primary possession, but lacking a little in quality. Could also be fragile mentally. They seem to take the wrong options- shooting bad wides rather than playing percentages.
Waterford: Not as far back as some think, some good young hurlers. However with current manager, i am not sure that they will feature this year. Might have to wait until Fergal Hartley takes over.
Limerick: They will put it up to Tipp in Munster, this is their AI final.
Wexford, Offaly, Antrim, Laois: Way, way back.
Blanco
(7,909 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 18:14
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Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
The simplicity of his methods, and the significance given to games in training are things that other coaches and trainers do not embrace for some reason. .
This point is totally overplayed , one very noticeable thing about KK is their physical strength and fitness levels , very evident again on Sunday , "the all they ever do is play a match" line plays out well in the media , less reported are the numerous very intense Gym and strength training sessions that their players do both on and off season. They are very talented hurlers but it is the intensity levels they can sustain that sets them apart from other teams.
You have to admire their total commitment to this and their willingness to do anything to win AI's , for example I could not imagine a KK player in his prime like Lar Corbett walking away from the KK panel before his time.
Also it is not permanent , as pointed out all these things go in cycles,
Blanco
(7,909 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 18:22
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Originally posted by the Goan:
As my old coach used to say there is no I in team.way back.
Or as Dan Shanahan is reportedly to have said "There is no ME in team"
As a Tipp man I agee 100% with your comments on Tipp , on their day they can beat anyone , including KK , but they are lazy , Liam Sheedy fought a battle to get that out of them , he even commented on having to constantly remind lads to keep up the pressure game , as it was not natural to them.
They seem to have lapsed back to old ways now , if Ryan can focus them again they will not be too far off come September , but they could just as easily go out to any team before that because of a lazy approach to a game.
rev it up
(378 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 18:30
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If you Were to go back to January 1991 you could say Cork as champions were favourites for 1991. Tipp and Galway were second. Offaly then were more fancied than Kk. That was probably the one year when there were possibly 4 teams ahead of them in the pecking order. By jan 1992 they were back in the top 2 again. Even during the golden age of Clare/ Offaly/Wex kk were always the bookie favourites. In the mid to late 90's Cork were long odds and again in 2009 to present.
labane1917
(1,438 Posts)
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07-May-2012 18:41
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Obviously in the history of all sports nothing is permanent. The troubling thing at present though is Kilkenny have been at roughly the same level now for 13 years, players come and go but they just seem to stay the same as a team, while contenders by and large are going backwards. A contender comes along and maybe beats them once or twice (Galway 2001 and 2005, Cork 99 and 2004, Tipp 2010) but then they just come back and reassert their dominance, and frequently very emphatically. They seem to thrive when a challenge is laid down, when there is any talk of an up and coming team or in particular when there is talk that they are in decline. The level of intensity they can get to has just not been matched by any other team for more than 1-2 years. Until another county or counties gets the same consistency in their preparation I am afraid it will stay the same.
In my view it will take a very good young team with a great gameplan to knock them off their perch. Tipp did it in 2009/2010 because they had a coach who devised a gameplan around Lar who when you get the right kind of ball to him was virtually unmarkable in that period. Obviously it takes more than that, especially Tipp matching them in intensity, but I think the Eamonn O'Shea/Lar component was the key. Galway did it in 2001/2005 by hurling out of their skins on the day and Cork did it by having a running game that Kilkenny could not handle (but quickly figured out how to handle).
If you look for underlying trends, the consistency factor is what sets Kilkenny apart. At underage over the same 13 year period they are no better than several other counties but they bring players into a stable system where every player knows what's expected and the level they have to perform at. Every other team has been changing managers / setup every few years, how many managers have Cork, Galway, Clare, Limerick and even Tipperary had in the time Cody has been in charge? As a Galwayman I can only hope that Anthony Cunningham is given at least 5 years because in my view that is the minimum length of time it takes to develop and nurture an intercounty setup that is built around the strength of that individual counties hurling style and not trying to copy Kilkenny. It is very instructive for example that teh managers that took Galway to AI finals in 2001 and 2005 beating Kilkenny along the way were both gone within a year. I don't think any other county has the patience that Kilkenny have had, but that's easy to say when you're winning I suppose.
manfromdelmonte
(2,268 Posts)
Posted:
07-May-2012 19:13
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lads
Kilkenny have not stopped training any winter since 2006.
they get together and play an indoor hurling possession type game using shortened sticks - i've talked to the lad who makes them.
the games encourage physical contact and that is why their players are so comfortable with the rough stuff.
quietly they go about their strength and conditioning stuff with a very professional setup
then they have 2/3 coaches such as Martin Fogarty who get their fitness, striking and skill levels up as high as any team.
Blanco
(7,909 Posts)
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07-May-2012 19:30
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Originally posted by manfromdelmonte:
ladsKilkenny have not stopped training any winter since 2006.
they get together and play an indoor hurling possession type game using shortened sticks - i've talked to the lad who makes them.
the games encourage physical contact and that is why their players are so comfortable with the rough stuff.quietly they go about their strength and conditioning stuff with a very professional setup
then they have 2/3 coaches such as Martin Fogarty who get their fitness, striking and skill levels up as high as any team.
You are correct , I worked with a KK hurler a couple ago who played while Cody was there, and he used to always laugh when people thought everything was as simple as a good hard match in training , its part of it , but also was the gym programne he was on during the winter months , I remember it well at he time because I knew the Tipp lads were doing fcuk all at the same time and most would never have seen the inside of a gym. Anyone in the know in KK will tell you how professional their set up has been for years.
As regards training routines I went in to Semple stadium to training before one of the AI's during Sheedy's time and after the normal match , they fenced off a quarter of the field and all the players played a very compact tight match in that quarter where they were only allowed to offload with one hand on the hurley, it was literally just players bouncing off each other they were so up close to each other , I was told that they never did that before any other match, it was only to prepare the players for what they were likely to face off KK.
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