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John Allen
inthenameajaysus
(496 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:18
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The man deserves some praise for the way he had limerick primed and ready for tipp yesterday.. it didnt seem to be going that way during the league..
he deserves some criticism though for bringing on a clearly unfit Declan Hannon.. O' Mahoney lorded the game after that if it wasnt the losing of the game for Limerick it certainly helped tipp..
ProjX
(726 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:23
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Originally posted by inthenameajaysus:
The man deserves some praise for the way he had limerick primed and ready for tipp yesterday.. it didnt seem to be going that way during the league..he deserves some criticism though for bringing on a clearly unfit Declan Hannon.. O' Mahoney lorded the game after that if it wasnt the losing of the game for Limerick it certainly helped tipp..
Thanks to an unfit Limerick team and some amazing decisions on the sideline, Tipp scored 1-10 in the last 10 minutes.
John Allen does know that its a 70 minute game, right? His track record so far indicates that he believes hurling is a 60 minute game.
Objective 1 - Get promoted: Result = Fail
Objective 2 - Have a decent Munster championship: Result = Fail
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:25
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Any chance you could delete the thread because while I know it's not your fault, it has already turned to farce
BeTimberin
(2,458 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:27
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Agreed. Cant believe the bile ProjX has for the man despite whatever critics he has. The slating he has received off this poster in recent months is over the top!
dubliner 2
(10,823 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:32
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Originally posted by BeTimberin:
Agreed. Cant believe the bile ProjX has for the man despite whatever critics he has. The slating he has received off this poster in recent months is over the top!
He's a WUM. Don't mind him. Limerick are producing players now and have some of the finest young talent in the country. They're not that different to Dublin and were playing probably the second best team in the country and gave it some rattle. Yes it was a moral victory and you get sick of them at times but I wouldn't fancy drawing Limerick later in the year and I suspect a lot of others wouldn't either.
Hopefully they can keep it up and keep improving.
As for our WUM friend he's no fan of hurling and has proved that with his comments.
glasandbán
(2,046 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:33
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Originally posted by BeTimberin:
Agreed. Cant believe the bile ProjX has for the man despite whatever critics he has. The slating he has received off this poster in recent months is over the top!
He/she is a WUM or a very sad act. Same poster who thought Smiley McCarthy did a great job and should be kept. It's embarrassing to genuine Limerick fans.
inthenameajaysus
(496 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:34
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hmm ya pity, i thought by mentioning the positives and negatives from yesterday that other posters might follow suit and contribute even handed critiques, hopefully that will happen
myself, i just don't know what to make of Allen.. style intensity and teamwork were all on show yesterday only to be undone by poor substitutions and changes to formation....
cityoftribes
(3,030 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:38
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Originally posted by inthenameajaysus:
hmm ya pity, i thought by mentioning the positives and negatives from yesterday that other posters might follow suit and contribute even handed critiques, hopefully that will happenmyself, i just don't know what to make of Allen.. style intensity and teamwork were all on show yesterday only to be undone by poor substitutions and changes to formation....
Did you not know you are not allowed to give a balanced opinon on things here! It doesn't sit with the trolls and those with agendas!
On the game. How much do you think the fade out has to do with being in Division 1b?? The intensity levels really caught up with them in the last ten minutes and it's hard to ignore that if they had a bit of hurling over the sping against the likes of KK, Cork, Galway, Dublin etc it may have stood to them towards the end.
BeTimberin
(2,458 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:41
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Hard to keep that intensity going for 70 minutes to be honest. But one key factor was the bench. Limerick have a lot of talent coming through - they will need every bit of it. Same as ourselves in Clare. A fully fit Hannon will add a lot to them. Tipp's bench contributed 5 points yesterday in addition to a storming finish from McGrath, Bourke and Bonnar in particular in clearing and winning ball. Limerick didnt have the same impact off the bench.
glasandbán
(2,046 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 12:52
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Originally posted by cityoftribes:
Did you not know you are not allowed to give a balanced opinon on things here! It doesn't sit with the trolls and thsoe with agendas!On the game. How much do you think the fade out has to do with being in Division 1b?? The intensity levels really caught up with them in the last ten minutes and it's hard to ignore that if they had a bit of hurling over the sping against the likes of KK, Cork, Galway, Dublin etc it may have stood to them towards the end.
Good point, and probably backs up the injustice of the current league system and the way it was introduced.
On Allen yesterday, there's been a lot of criticism of the substitutions and it's probably true. Downes shouldn't have been taken off which is widely agreed, which some fellas who have been criticising him all year should take note of. The other switches didn't work, and in fact they were similar to the changes in Clare game where a half forward line hat had been dominant was completely undone in the last 10.
At the end of the day, given the intensity we hurled at and the heat in the day, it was a day for 5 subs. Subs simply had to be introduced, it was unfortunate that we didn't have the same calibre of players to bring in that Tipp did. With Hannon and Hickey back in that team will be stronger and should improve from the game.
While Allen can be criticised for his substitutions, he had limited options. He's been criticised by some for not being the type of guy that would get Limerick "fired up" -well that was proven wrong yesterday. More importantly, he has in my opinion improved the team from last year. His selections have looked better to me than O'Grady's last year.
Most importantly, our style has greatly improved from last year. Massive intensity and room for expression which suits Limerick hurling, great support play, and a HUGE improvement on players taking the right option on the ball. Compare this to the amount of times a short pass or solo into trouble was chosen when O'Grady was in charge last year. I think Allen deserves massive credit for this above all else.
Fitness an issue? Maybe. But again think of the intensity of the game we played, the hot day and we were playing a battle hardened team that was used to going toe to toe with Kilkenny the last three years.
All in all I think the positives we can see greatly outweigh the negatives.
cityoftribes
(3,030 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:02
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Originally posted by glasandbán:
Good point, and probably backs up the injustice of the current league system and the way it was introduced.
The perceived injustice is a double edged sword though. The ultimate answer to the problem is probably to increase the top division, but where do you stop? Do you accommodate Limerick, Dublin, Wexford and Offaly. That's too many and would result in both divisions becoming uncompetitive, which is in nobodys interest. Anyhow, it's probably for another thread.
I agree that the positives do outweigh the negatives for Limerick. Hopefully they can build on the performance rather than being set back by the result.
parmenion
(499 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:17
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I'd say fair Play to John Allen- they looked well drilled & hungry yesterday. The substitutions didnt work out as well for Limerick as Tipp but then they are a seasoned animal & Limerick are just starting out on a long road.
Allen's faith in the full back line was justified & I hope he can build on the good work he has put in so far.
Sledgehammer
(459 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:25
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Originally posted by inthenameajaysus:
The man deserves some praise for the way he had limerick primed and ready for tipp yesterday.. it didnt seem to be going that way during the league..he deserves some criticism though for bringing on a clearly unfit Declan Hannon.. O' Mahoney lorded the game after that if it wasnt the losing of the game for Limerick it certainly helped tipp..
Yep Limerick were a credit to the jersey yesterday, on the Hannon thing, fit or unfit, (he hit a point when came on, although hit bad wide later on), but worth a risk IMO, he's a good hurler. Conor O'Mahony was actually one of our few that hurled well for 70 mins, he didn't just start on 55 like the rest, the idea that he dominated Hannon is skewed somewhat. Limerick have something they haven't had in a while and that's forwards that can score, good hurlers. Take the positives, think for the effort those lads put in they deserve it.
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:34
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Originally posted by cityoftribes:
The perceived injustice is a double edged sword though. The ultimate answer to the problem is probably to increase the top division, but where do you stop? Do you accommodate Limerick, Dublin, Wexford and Offaly. That's too many and would result in both divisions becoming uncompetitive, which is in nobodys interest. Anyhow, it's probably for another thread. I agree that the positives do outweigh the negatives for Limerick. Hopefully they can build on the performance rather than being set back by the result.
I dont think its too many. You can still have a 1a and 1b but the teams for each division are drawn out of a hat. Play it on a home and away basis and it guarantees each team 8 matches. Top team from each group meets in the final, bottom 2 in the relegation play off
GearBrylls
(53 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:47
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I was sick for quite a few hours after that defeat yesterday, but only because I started to believe we were actually going to do it.
There were a couple of tactical decisions that didn't workout but I don't lay blame with players or manager. The intensity they brought to the game was brilliant and in that heat was never going to be sustained, and shows the importance of a good bench, which with a fully fit Hannon and with Hickey back will look much better.
If the players can stay focused, there is still a long summer a head for us!
Luimeach abu!!
lopper
(1,990 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:47
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I don't think it was necessarily a fitness thing yesterday, I think it was probably mostly in the changes made.
Dowling has been moved in to FF a few times now and it hasn't really worked and has weakened the half-forward line.
Browne was moved to wing-forward when maybe it should have been Jimbob who got shoved up.
Hannon's introduction, while it didn't work, made sense to me, however I wouldn't have put him at CF and I wouldn't have taken off Downes.
Experienced players are often brought in to bring the thing across the line, however in Niall Moran's case he didn't really see the ball and Brian Geary coughed up two points and looks to still be inflicted with the handpass disease DO'G brought in last year and which simply does not suit him.
Wayne Mac's departure didn't help either.
The intensity of the backs is fantastic to see. This is a back unit that has had us all worried, yet they have shown great ferocity both against Tipp and Clare, really constricting them and not allowing them play. The forwards, as we expected, are proving they can score. The problem in both matches was the collapse of the half-forward line when it came to winning possession, which was not helped at all by the fact that puckout after puckout was rained down on top of them. These things need to be addressed.
Other than that, from what I've seen so far, I'd be happy to see Allen kept on for another year right now. While the whole package may not be achieved with him, I'm seeing him bringing some very positive aspects to this team.
rebelrebel30
(8,531 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:47
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Originally posted by inthenameajaysus:
The man deserves some praise for the way he had limerick primed and ready for tipp yesterday.. it didnt seem to be going that way during the league..he deserves some criticism though for bringing on a clearly unfit Declan Hannon.. O' Mahoney lorded the game after that if it wasnt the losing of the game for Limerick it certainly helped tipp..
I agree i though Limerick were very good for at least 50mins and Tipp were poor. However i dont see it just about fitness levels costing Limerick towards the end, Tipp introduced lets be fair top quality hurlers who having been benched for the start went out and proved a point to Declan.
To me looking at the game, i think Tipp were complancent for long stretches, now thats not to take away from Limerick as you can only look after yourself but suddendly when they did wake up in the last 10mins they totally dominated.
Limerick will take huge positives, workrate and a method to their hurling - word of caution your always one game away from being heros to zeros and now as no one was really expecting Limerick to play like that yesterday, the crucial games now will be to see can they play like that regularly.
For Tipp, they got a game under their belt and a wake up call. I for one was praying that limerick won yesterday, thats not being disrespectful to limerick as even if they did we would have had a battle to beat them, but i just think Tipp are all round a better outfit with a high number of quality hurlers who can inflict damage on you and its going to be a serious test to beat them down the pairc for sure.
cityoftribes
(3,030 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 13:59
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Originally posted by staycalm:
I dont think its too many. You can still have a 1a and 1b but the teams for each division are drawn out of a hat. Play it on a home and away basis and it guarantees each team 8 matches. Top team from each group meets in the final, bottom 2 in the relegation play off
It's he knock on effect it would have on the teams in the division below it, and also on any team relegated from it.
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 14:07
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Originally posted by cityoftribes:
It's he knock on effect it would have on the teams in the division below it, and also on any team relegated from it.
This thing about the teams below that getting competitive matches against the top teams hasnt worked in any way. Anyone could pick the 2 teams who would play in the division 2 finals for the last few years before the league even started. It has been, Wexford, Clare, Limerick every year and some of the matches have been pointless. No disrespect to some of the teams in the division but what benefit is it to Carlow or Kerry to be beaten by Limerick or Clare by 15 points every year. They are in a division where they know they havent a hope of getting to a final. At least by grading the teams fairly it gives everyone a chance. Sure you could say that Kilkenny are a level above Offaly, Limerick or Clare but it is more likely that one of those teams would beat Kilkenny well before Kerry would beat Clare
inthenameajaysus
(496 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 14:23
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on the whole there are far more positives than negatives with limericks performance yesterday
they have the cut of a team that was holding back all the league so that they can pounce on an uninterested tipp
seems a little arrogant of declan ryan to leave what some here are calling better players on the bench, i would have like nothing more than to catch the fcukers out after a stunt like that
on downes, he's a championship hurler and the fast ground suits him so early criticism of his performances should be put in context
one thing that frustrated me was that I counted 6 times when we were directly punished as a result of one of our wing backs and one of our mid fielders refusing to clear the ball
a little naivety maybe but one couldn't help get the feeling while watching it that Limerick would shoot themselves in the foot again like so many times before.. is this a problem stemming from inexperience, not being as good as their direct opponents or maybe its indicative of a more widespread psychological problem ingrained in limerick hurling
the success at all grades enjoyed by the young guys in limericks squad might be enough to buck this trend.. god i hope so
carryharry
(4,804 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 14:30
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''seems a little arrogant of declan ryan to leave what some here are calling better players on the bench, i would have like nothing more than to catch the fcukers out after a stunt like that''
Come off it lad, Declan Ryan is as honest as the day is long, he doesn't do stunts!
Bonnar Maher, Callinan and Shane Bourke were all injured throughout the league so were never going to start the game.
Shane McGrath after the league was behind Woodlock and B Maher and upped his game yesterday when introduced.
Donagh Maher was replaced by Conor O'Brien (harsh enough really) but he was a stand out league player so his inclusion was performance related and not a stunt!
Stunt you said, i don't think so.
cityoftribes
(3,030 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 14:42
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Originally posted by staycalm:
This thing about the teams below that getting competitive matches against the top teams hasnt worked in any way. Anyone could pick the 2 teams who would play in the division 2 finals for the last few years before the league even started. It has been, Wexford, Clare, Limerick every year and some of the matches have been pointless. No disrespect to some of the teams in the division but what benefit is it to Carlow or Kerry to be beaten by Limerick or Clare by 15 points every year. They are in a division where they know they havent a hope of getting to a final. At least by grading the teams fairly it gives everyone a chance. Sure you could say that Kilkenny are a level above Offaly, Limerick or Clare but it is more likely that one of those teams would beat Kilkenny well before Kerry would beat Clare
I don't know, I think if you look at league and championship results, there are as many teams in Div 1 getting hammered by other teams in the same division. All in all I think the format now is as near to functional as it's ever going to get.
ProjX
(726 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 14:53
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Originally posted by BeTimberin:
Agreed. Cant believe the bile ProjX has for the man despite whatever critics he has. The slating he has received off this poster in recent months is over the top!
If you can quote any 'Bile' I would be interested to see it. Otherwise, if you cannot stand behind your comments then I suggest you apologize to me.
I simply pointed out that when measured against his season objectives, the mark would be a fail. Simple as that.
cityoftribes
(3,030 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 15:03
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Originally posted by ProjX:
If you can quote any 'Bile' I would be interested to see it. Otherwise, if you cannot stand behind your comments then I suggest you apologize to me.I simply pointed out that when measured against his season objectives, the mark would be a fail. Simple as that.
After the 1st game in the league you wanted him out. That's bile, as are all of your posts about John Allen. You hadn't the courage to leave your post up, only Hitch quoted it before you got the chance to delete it.
Change the record, because you're rapidly becoming a major pain in the hole.
ProjX
(726 Posts)
Posted:
28-May-2012 15:21
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Originally posted by cityoftribes:
After the 1st game in the league you wanted him out. That's bile, as are all of your posts about John Allen. You hadn't the courage to leave your post up, only Hitch quoted it before you got the chance to delete it. Change the record, because you're rapidly becoming a major pain in the hole.
ok, so saying that someone is not up to a job following a disaster of a league campaign is Bile?
Hmmm, ok so. Lets use that definition for future reference.
By the way, wasn't I correct in my prediction after the first game that John would not get the side promoted?
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