An Fear Rua - Do you believe Brendan Howlin on Croke Park ?

kilkennycat2004

(Power User)

Posted: 13-Jun-2012 18:13

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A lot of coverage today on the ("so called") savings in the public service under the Croke Park agrement.
Probably a more realistic summary below from the excellent FinFacts website......

Irish Economy 2012: The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Brendan Howlin TD, today welcomed the publication by the Implementation Body for the Public Service Agreement 2010-2014 (‘Croke Park Agreement’) of its Second Annual Progress Report. He claims that €1.5bn in pay and 'administrative efficiency' savings have been achieved in the past two years. However, these savings are a sham.

This report is a sham because of the focus on pay rather than both pay and pensions and the benchmark year selected.

There would be no savings on the pay and pensions bill by 2015 if 2006 -- the peak year of the boom was the benchmark year.

The report of activities by Ireland's biggest employer has a long list of 'achievements' -- not difficult in itself to produce a laundry list involving the activities of 290,000 people.

Efficiencies realised from the closure of barracks: €1.3m;
Prison Service canteen facilities: €1.4m;
Changes in work practices and value for money initiatives in the Naval Service: €2m;
Non pay gains in the Garda Síochána: €24m;
Central Mental Hospital roster changes: €1m.

.. and on the list goes on all 'savings' on exorbitant levels.

Big issues are not addressed and this list of 'savings' should not be seen as the result of radical change in structures but a reality of a staff embargo and a limit from the reckless spending levels of the boom period.

How can a civil servant in a bankrupt state retire at the age of 57 with a lump sum payment of €428,011, a special top-up of €142,670 (for senior civil servants who retire early) and an annual pension of €142,670?

The Comptroller & Auditor General said in 2009 that the average number of sick days taken in 2007 by each Clerical Officer was 16 days.

Last year, research published by the German Macroeconomic Policy Institute (IMK) shows that in 2010, the average hourly labour costs (including social security costs paid by private sector employers) were €28 for the Irish private sector and €34 for the Irish public sector.

The rates for Germany were €29 per hour in both sectors; Finland's rate was also €29 in both sectors and the UK was €20 per hour in the private sector and €21 per hour in the public sector.

So the Irish public sector had a premium of 21% before accounting for the benefits of the special pension scheme.

'The National Strategy for Higher Education to 2030' report which was published in January 2011 stated: "Salaries account for three-quarters of total current expenditure on higher education in Ireland – compared with an international average of two-thirds. This means that Irish higher education operates with lower (nonpay) recurrent expenditure than is typical in other countries."

Last April, the Department of Finance said that while taxation receipts in 2012 are projected to be just above 2004 levels, the gross voted expenditure of Government Departments and Offices in 2012, at an estimated €56bn, is projected to be 37% above the level it was in 2004, despite the very significant adjustments to both revenues and expenditure since mid-2008.

Howlin's magic 'savings'

The Minster for Public Expenditure and Reform apologised to a sympathetic Dáil audience last March for even bringing up the issue of public sector pay. He suggested that the paybill (excluding 30,000 local authority workers) would be cut by €3.5bn (including the €1.5bn related to 2009 pay cuts and a special pensions levy) by 2015 from the 2008 level .

"It is perhaps easy to become jaded in our discussion of Public Services pay costs," the minister said in a statement.

There are a lot citizens who could feel 'jaded' about besides pay.

In contrast with his colleague Joan Burton who has highlighted the increase in welfare from €8bn to €21bn from 2011, Howlin chooses 2008 as his benchmark years and produces smoke about the 1970s as the reason for €1bn rise in the cost of public pensions.

His figure for 2009 pay of €17.5bn is before the deduction of the 2009 pay cut and special pensions levy (offset against pay rather than the cash cost of pensions) amounting to about €1.5bn, which was proposed by the late Brian Lenihan, minister of finance, in the Budget of October 2008.

Detailed data on pay and pensions is published annually by the Departments of Finance/Public Expenditure and Reform, excluding local authorities.

In 2001 the Exchequer net pay and pensions bill (ex local authorities) was €10.2bn; it was €16.2bn in 2006; €18.7 in 2008 and estimated to be €17.1bn in 2011 - - an increase of 5.6% since 2006 and 67.6% since 2001.

Pay is down 0.3% since 2006 and pensions are up 67%.

The net cash cost of pensions (after an employee's normal deductions) was €876m in 2001; €1.4bn in 2006; €2.0bn in 2009 and €2.3bn in 2011.

A cut of €3.5bn from the 2008 pay bill would leave €13.6bn. Howlin expects pensions to increase by €1bn and adding to net pensions of €1.7bn in 2008, gives a total of €2.7bn in 2015 - - up from €2.3bn in 2011. This would give a total pay and pensions bill of €16.3bn for 2015 compared (excluding local authorities) with the 2006 level of €16.2bn.

However, annual pension cost increases in 2010-2015 are likely to be higher than €100m annually.

From 2008, the annual increases have been: €140m; €191m and €192m.

So, the minister's claims compared with the peak year of the bubble show that there is nothing to brag about.

The minister said today: “I welcome the findings of the Implementation Body that almost €900 million of sustainable pay and non-pay savings have been successfully delivered in the second year of the Croke Park Agreement. This means the Agreement has achieved almost €1.5bn in pay and on pay savings in its first two years. We should not lose sight of the fact that the Croke Park Agreement has enabled these savings to be delivered in a climate of industrial peace across the public service."

“€1.5bn of recurring savings is a substantial contribution by public servants, who have also suffered an average 14% pay cut since 2009. Today’s report shows we’re ahead of Government and troika targets on public sector staffing and payroll savings," said Impact trade union general secretary Shay Cody.

IBEC, the main business lobby group, said it was important to recognise that, due to the numbers taking early retirement, a significant proportion of payroll savings would be off-set by increased pension costs. The focus of attention should be on savings to the combined pay and pensions bill, not just the pay bill.

IBEC director Brendan McGinty said: "The need for significant additional reforms and savings remains. Important progress has been made, but much more needs to be done. A number of issues still need to be addressed, including the payment of increments, reform of the allowances system and an overhaul of outdated sick leave policies. A more progressive approach to performance management is also needed.

"Another €3bn adjustment in Budget 2013 is required and the bulk of this should come from reducing expenditure, not raising taxes. The pace of change needs to increase and further changes to public sector pay and pensions should not be ruled out.

"Budget constraints and fewer staff numbers make it difficult to maintain the quality of service, but this can be overcome if more use is made of the skills and experience available in the private sector. Major additional savings can be made through the public procurement process, and by making better use of out-sourcing and shared services."

ProjX

(726 Posts)

Posted: 13-Jun-2012 19:40

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Swings and roundabouts.

Accounting exercises can achieve a lot.

Did Paul Appleby take early retire,ent yet without publishing the ODCE report on corruption at Anglo yet? We have been waiting 3 and a half years for this report and then he takes early retirement. Some country alright.

Larkin

(4,404 Posts)

Posted: 13-Jun-2012 20:26

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Do I believe him? About as much as I believe Burton when she says she saved all that money some months ago.

Bright Vision

(565 Posts)

Posted: 13-Jun-2012 23:07

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The governments own quango the ESRI finally publishes something mildly on the ball regarding social welfare, it's pulled and the void is filled with more spin.

How stupid do these 'public servants' think the public are

level da hoor on tour

(1,170 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 10:57

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Originally posted by Bright Vision:
How stupid do these 'public servants' think the public are

Very... if were were as clever as them we would be public servants. :-(

The Jedi

(214 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 11:07

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Originally posted by Bright Vision:
How stupid do these 'public servants' think the public are

Very. We keep taking it up the ass for them. 60% voted Yes to continue their gravy train.

Blanco

(7,909 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 11:17

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Sometimes you just think the best thing all round is for the IMF etc just cut the money off, 100% of the country is borrowing all this money so a few can live in recession proof Ireland.

Union chief defends pay increments for higher-paid public servants
Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 10:59 AM

The General Secretary of the Public Services Executive Union has today defended a decision to sanction pay increments to more than 3,000 public-sector workers who earn an annual salary of more than €70,000.

Tom Geraghty, who is also a member of the implementation body of the Croke Park deal, said that the agreement is working and that the country cannot afford to scrap it.

The latest review of the Croke Park deal on public-sector pay and conditions shows that 1.5 billion euro in savings have been secured since 2010.

But the Government has warned that further savings are needed.

There are suggestions that higher earners should have their pay freezed, while the country's economy recovers.

"What the agreement is, is an agreement whereby the Government undertakes that they will not attack the pay of public servants, in return for which public servants co-operate with the changes that are necessary to put this country back on a successful fiscal course," said Mr Geraghty.
http://www.irishexaminer.com

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 11:44

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Originally posted by Blanco:
Sometimes you just think the best thing all round is for the IMF etc just cut the money off, 100% of the country is borrowing all this money so a few can live in recession proof Ireland.Union chief defends pay increments for higher-paid public servants
Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 10:59 AMThe General Secretary of the Public Services Executive Union has today defended a decision to sanction pay increments to more than 3,000 public-sector workers who earn an annual salary of more than €70,000. Tom Geraghty, who is also a member of the implementation body of the Croke Park deal, said that the agreement is working and that the country cannot afford to scrap it. The latest review of the Croke Park deal on public-sector pay and conditions shows that 1.5 billion euro in savings have been secured since 2010.But the Government has warned that further savings are needed.There are suggestions that higher earners should have their pay freezed, while the country's economy recovers."What the agreement is, is an agreement whereby the Government undertakes that they will not attack the pay of public servants, in return for which public servants co-operate with the changes that are necessary to put this country back on a successful fiscal course," said Mr Geraghty.
http://www.irishexaminer.com

The aforementioned Mr Geraghty was on the Radio this morning attempting to justify this sham of an agreement, and typically side stepped any questions looking for specifics on figures . The CPSU (which seem to be like the Military wing of ICTU since they always seems to be to the forefront and most vocal) say they will be looking for wage increases now off the back of these marvellous savings.

Blanco

(7,909 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 12:06

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Hopefully there is signs of cracks within the coalition on this now.

Leo Varadker said this morning on the Radio that down the line that there will have to be serious considerations given to compulsory redundancies in some sections of the public services, as at the moment we are closing down some sections to save on costs only then to redeploy all these people somewhere else where they are not needed, thus overall making very little savings in real money

O'Reilly the minister for Health said himself last week that the Elephant in the room for the health sector costs was the massive pay bill costs and warned it was unsustainable.

Already Howlan has come out with a statement distancing himself from Varadkers comments saying that he sees no need for compulsory redundancies ever in the public service and he is committed to upholding the agreement as is , with no pay cuts and no job loses.

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 12:19

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The real elephant in the room is the actual Croke park agreement itself. It’s the equivalent of Mick Wallace’s accountant saying, don’t worry about that aul €2M tax bill Mick, sure I’ve made some efficiencies here that will save you €500, Oh and by the way, because I’ve been so efficient I’ll be needing a pay rise now.

This message has been edited - 14-jun-2012 @ 12:19

Rebel CNC

(4,232 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 12:43

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Originally posted by Boston Bruin:
The real elephant in the room is the actual Croke park agreement itself. It’s the equivalent of Mick Wallace’s accountant saying, don’t worry about that aul €2M tax bill Mick, sure I’ve made some efficiencies here that will save you €500, Oh and by the way, because I’ve been so efficient I’ll be needing a pay rise now.

Everyone knows that but Labour especially trying to limp on to 2014 before implementing the cuts. Scrapping services here or redeployment there is only tinkering at the margins of our public spending. Early redundancy is no use as the redundancvy payment and pension payments offset the initial saving.
Pretty savage across the board payroll cuts will need to be made sooner rather than later.
If Labour can somehow make it through to 2014 they will exit the coalition as they're petrified of bringing the bad news to their union paymasters.

Long ball

(84 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 13:33

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Originally posted by Rebel CNC:
Everyone knows that but Labour especially trying to limp on to 2014 before implementing the cuts. Scrapping services here or redeployment there is only tinkering at the margins of our public spending. Early redundancy is no use as the redundancvy payment and pension payments offset the initial saving.
Pretty savage across the board payroll cuts will need to be made sooner rather than later.
If Labour can somehow make it through to 2014 they will exit the coalition as they're petrified of bringing the bad news to their union paymasters.

Savage payroll cuts have been made already: for example newly qualified primary teachers, having received over 480 leaving cert points and having spent at least 3 years in college, now have a starting salary of around €28000 (that's if any of them can actually get jobs considering the raised pupil teacher ratio). Now that's hardly a big wage for someone who's responsible for educating the youth of the country. Please don't tar ALL public servants with the same brush.

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 13:46

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Originally posted by Long ball:
Savage payroll cuts have been made already: for example newly qualified primary teachers, having received over 480 leaving cert points and having spent at least 3 years in college, now have a starting salary of around €28000 (that's if any of them can actually get jobs considering the raised pupil teacher ratio). Now that's hardly a big wage for someone who's responsible for educating the youth of the country. Please don't tar ALL public servants with the same brush.

Took me approximately 5 years in the workforce to earn the equivalent of €28K having left college after 5 years looking a for a tech job in the aftermath of the dot com bubble having burst. Why should a bankrupt country ignore the concept of supply versus demand to pay anybody including teachers above the odds?

dubliner 2

(10,823 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 13:59

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Originally posted by Boston Bruin:

Took me approximately 5 years in the workforce to earn the equivalent of €28K having left college after 5 years looking a for a tech job in the aftermath of the dot com bubble having burst. Why should a bankrupt country ignore the concept of supply versus demand to pay anybody including teachers above the odds?

Maybe because educating the youth of the nation is an important job?

And if you think that the concept of supply and demand should apply to teaching you're off your trolly.

This message has been edited - 14-jun-2012 @ 14:00

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 14:25

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Originally posted by dubliner 2:
Maybe because educating the youth of the nation is an important job?And if you think that the concept of supply and demand should apply to teaching you're off your trolly.

There are lots of important profession in the world D2 and the rules of supply and demand hold steadfast. What would make teaching an exception? I have extended family members and siblings of friends who work as trainee accountants and new qualified solicitors earning absolute peanuts due to supply & demand in recessionary Ireland. One girl in particular was working free gratis to gain experience on her CV until she was lucky enough to get into another firm.

dubliner 2

(10,823 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 14:29

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Originally posted by Boston Bruin:
There are lots of important profession in the world D2 and the rules of supply and demand hold steadfast. What would make teaching an exception? I have extended family members and siblings of friends who work as trainee accountants and new qualified solicitors earning absolute peanuts due to supply & demand in recessionary Ireland. One girl in particular was working free gratis to gain experience on her CV until she was lucky enough to get into another firm.

So you want to employ those who bid least for their services to teach children.

Now if you can't see how totally crazy that is then I'll never be able to explain it to you.

And comparing the education of a child to the work of an accountant or solicitor is madness.

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 14:34

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Originally posted by dubliner 2:
So you want to employ those who bid least for their services to teach children.Now if you can't see how totally crazy that is then I'll never be able to explain it to you.And comparing the education of a child to the work of an accountant or solicitor is madness.

D2 you seem to be suggesting that the rate at which someone is willing to do a job is directly related to their competency. If that was the case then we would be enjoying the greatest political system and most efficient public services in the developed world.
I think you have a slightly biased view on the standing of the teaching profession in the grand scheme of things.

Pog Mahone

(9,387 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 14:38

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Originally posted by Boston Bruin:
There are lots of important profession in the world D2 and the rules of supply and demand hold steadfast. What would make teaching an exception? I have extended family members and siblings of friends who work as trainee accountants and new qualified solicitors earning absolute peanuts due to supply & demand in recessionary Ireland.

True Boston, there are many important professions, teaching is an important profession even though at times teachers tend to oversell it's importance, in fact most professions are important in their own right. On your family member trainee accountants bit, they are paid peanuts (relatively speaking) to start off with because they are just that, trainees (btw I think they are being treated pretty close to slave labour), even before they are qualified after the 3.5 years their salary will have increased significantly, and there will certainly be significant increases after qualification with little upward limit on what they can eventually earn.

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 14:49

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Originally posted by Pog Mahone:
True Boston, there are many important professions, teaching is an important profession even though at times teachers tend to oversell it's importance, in fact most professions are important in their own right. On your family member trainee accountants bit, they are paid peanuts (relatively speaking) to start off with because they are just that, trainees (btw I think they are being treated pretty close to slave labour), even before they are qualified after the 3.5 years their salary will have increased significantly, and there will certainly be significant increases after qualification with little upward limit on what they can eventually earn.

Fair point Pog, a difference would be though that its survival of the fittest, especially in the big accountancy firms, being taken on as a trainee offers no guarantee of extended tenure and these big firms perform a cull periodically and only keep on the cream of the crop. In teaching , once you’re in you’re in for life, ticking off the salary scale increments as you go regardless of ability. In reality the most important job is the one where resources are most scarce, todays Java Spring/Mobile application developers are the Planners & Architects of the late 90s/early to Mid 00s.

Ozzy

(1,867 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 15:31

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Complaining about an ENTRY salary of 28k is a bit ridiculous nowadays, when there is mass emigration and unemployment. It kind of reflects the disparity between the public and private sectors that some people, quite genuinely, believe it's not enough.
I think we'll be a long time cleaning up after the Ahern years, public sector pay and social welfare are just too generous and the expectations of those who receive them are too high, even after the cuts already made.
This same argument about the public sector is going on everywhere for four years at least. It's a shame really. Pity Euro 2012 isn't going to raise the national mood..

Bright Vision

(565 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 16:06

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I know the bottom ring of the ladder was reduced alright but are they still not entitled to €5.5k or so for being qualified and another €2k for walking the yard every forthnight.
That's a starting salary of €35k, not bad for a 21 year old. Teaching is what is, not for me but the salary and pension are good.

Here's a thought for you. If 4 years ago when this all kicked off they decided on a policy of stopping all increments, removing a salary rung at the top each year and introducing a rung at the bottom. Only those retired or at the top of the pay scale would have been affected. Everyone else would just have stayed on the same money.

Instead they screwed the young and gave the old handsome handouts. Fair play to all those who voted yes

jaykeane

(102 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 16:11

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Originally posted by dubliner 2:
Maybe because educating the youth of the nation is an important job?And if you think that the concept of supply and demand should apply to teaching you're off your trolly.

The big issue with the teachers is the amount of incompetent ones who simply cannot teach. We have a system where the most useless cu*t of a teacher can go through his/her whole career without fear of been sacked . Teachers should be scrutinized on an ongoing basis through yearly grading etc etc. This sort of sh*t of people going into a “Job for life” is laughable to anyone in the private sector . This is the sort of thing I as a private sector PAYE worker want to see through the concessions that have been given to public sector workers.

manfromdelmonte

(2,268 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 16:40

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I've said it plenty of time in our school that the Croke Park agreement is really protecting the pay of older teachers and retired teachers...
It is screwing all those starting out in the profession

Of course I am always shouted down by the other staff.
they only ever follow the INTO line

I wish they (women) and the INTO would be as vociferous when it comes for fighting for resources for the classroom and the pupil teacher ratio.
But alas, no.

manfromdelmonte

(2,268 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 16:43

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Originally posted by jaykeane:
The big issue with the teachers is the amount of incompetent ones who simply cannot teach. We have a system where the most useless cu*t of a teacher can go through his/her whole career without fear of been sacked . Teachers should be scrutinized on an ongoing basis through yearly grading etc etc. This sort of sh*t of people going into a “Job for life” is laughable to anyone in the private sector . This is the sort of thing I as a private sector PAYE worker want to see through the concessions that have been given to public sector workers.

I don't think there are too many useless +++++s of teachers out there
the vast majority of teachers put lots of effort and their own time into notes, resources, correcting
don't tar every teacher because you had a bad one

jaykeane

(102 Posts)

Posted: 14-Jun-2012 17:15

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Originally posted by manfromdelmonte:
I don't think there are too many useless +++++s of teachers out there
the vast majority of teachers put lots of effort and their own time into notes, resources, correcting
don't tar every teacher because you had a bad one

Thats exactly it "I don't think" you say , there are no facts nor figures to back up your argument . Come back to me with some sort of performance based grading accountability and we will discuss the matter.

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