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Topic: How to Stop the Swarm in Hurling
camann
(1,732 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 15:33
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Saw a topic on today's Examiner on this and also a bit on hurling in general on ARd San Aer the other day. Could ground hurling be the answer? Far too many huddles in today's game with players to very much to my annoyance trying to roll lift the ball in them. Would a fast pull from a half back or midfield be far more effective way to stop the athletic player out muscle and out harry his opponent? Are we neglecting a great skill for safety first approach. We saw how Kilkenny stopped Cork's running game but are we waiting for someone to stop Kilkenny's and Dublin's option?
BLUE TOO
(471 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 15:44
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Unfortunately ground hurling is not been used much in inter county anymore. The simple reason been it reduces the ability to keep the ball.
Espically with the likes of Clare, fast ground hurling is seldom if ever used in the fear that you will loose it.
The old way was to move the ball as fast as you can and let your team mates fight for there own ball. Alas it is no more
glasandbán
(2,046 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 16:16
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If the rules for steps and charging were properly enforced it would go a long way to getting rid of the problem I think.
Anyone but FF
(1,490 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 16:34
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Im in agreement that ground hurling is the answer. I would have said 5 years ago that ground hurling has no place in modern hurling but I've slowly changed my mind after watching the state of hurling in the last number of years. Having possesion isnt necesserily the advantage it once was as more often then not players are getting choked up and being forced into striking poorly or conceding a free. The swarm isnt necessarily killing the game but its the small fouls in the swarm like the tug of the jersey or especially the slight push in the back which are ruining the game. A ground stroke into the forward line would cut out a lot of the messing.
clubgaa
(348 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 17:12
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Anyone but FF your point on
"The swarm isnt necessarily killing the game but its the small fouls in the swarm like the tug of the jersey or especially the slight push in the back which are ruining the game".

This I agree with, how often have we seen 3 or 4 lads battling for posession, then a player runs in and pushes an opponent, the swarm is now on the ground and the referee blows the whistle to throw in the ball into a bigger swarm. Why dont refs give free's when players foul in the swarm? I dont think ground hurling will ever come back as it gives away too much posession.
South Limerick Referee
(16,613 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 17:20
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Ground hurling is like every other kind of hurling, it needs practice. More often than not, when you see a ground stroke in a game now its aimless and flies out over the sideline or else fails to beat the first man.

However if you are to pick and strike a low 40 yard ball to a teammate, its also possible to deliver that ball with a ground stroke a lot quicker if it was practiced.

manfromdelmonte
(2,268 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 18:04
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the throw-in must also be contested with a pull

I saw a player get a yellow card in a match recently where the ball was thrown in by the referee. He pulled on the ball, the other lad stuck his foot in to shield the ball.
Of course yer man got the leg nearly taken off him, and the other fella got a yellow card. But who was to blame? The fella who got hurt!! because he didn't use the hurley. Crazy stuff.

I doubt any county manager is going to try and get his team using ground hurling, as it is a very easy way to lose possession and players can be caught out of position very quickly if it goes wrong.
Letterman
(200 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 18:19
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I agree with SLR, if it is possable to hit a low ball from the hand accurately from 30 years then it can be done off the ground. All this talk of possesion drives me crazy. The steps rule exists to stop hurling and football for that matter being a possesion game. A man with the ball can be disposessed. The more short balls you play the more likely you are to be dispossessed. If you drive the ball into the forwards they might win they might lose, if the do win they are in a scoring position. They should be training players to win clean ball or to win the breaking ball but not trying to charge it forward like forwards in rugby or tika takka like Spain in the soccer.
DRIVE THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD!!!!
camann
(1,732 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 18:21
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The leg in front of the ball is like a man catching the ball without protection , there should not be a free given, granted for a second pull but not the first.
Just say a ball breaks around midfield would a player have the same chance of finding one of the full forward line with a ground stroke as well as out of hand which has far more chance of being blocked or hooked with the its few seconds more effort.
Good Facilities
(31 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 18:48
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Originally posted by glasandbán:
If the rules for steps and charging were properly enforced it would go a long way to getting rid of the problem I think.

Spot On.
Hidalgo
(2,114 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 19:13
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The problem with throw ins is that the ball isn't thrown but dropped.
As the ref retreats, the 2 players contesting the clash invariably chase after the ref with a pile of players following the front two. It's like a scrum in rugby at times.

The game has changed and evolved plenty times in the past and will continue to do so. Sooner or later, a team will devise a method of avoiding the swarm, increased use of ground hurling may well be the answer.
camann
(1,732 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 19:16
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Clone the Offaly team of the 90's.
m_the_d
(1,199 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 20:43
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First lad into the 'swarm' that splinters a hurl off anything gets a free.
Carry on Hurling
(513 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 21:27
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This comes back to the referees getting no respect from the players. If a referee gives a free for the first foul, there are a couple of outcomes.
1. players immediately confront ref to say they were fouled also
2. Sideline goes mad shouting at the ref to "let the game flow", or some other insightful comments only worthy of TSG

This forces referees to do a couple of things.
1. Let it go on until the ball comes out of it's own accord
2. Award a throw in and hope the ball gets away quickly

Whatever way you look at it, they way it is refereed is down to looking for the easy way out, which I can't fault them for.
Until the GAA sort the indiscipline from the top ALL the way to the bottom, these issues will persist.
Put it this way, I personally know about 10 referees, 6 of them have been either assaulted or threatened with assault. 3 of them have quit. Now this is the far end of the scale i know, but what percentage would you say make decisions based on the rules without taking into consideration the amount of grief they will get?
Refs that let the game flow are actually doing it wrong, you should keep that in mind the next time that compliment is paid to a ref, it means the had a bad game....
rebelrebel30
(8,531 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 21:41
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Originally posted by Hidalgo:
The problem with throw ins is that the ball isn't thrown but dropped.
As the ref retreats, the 2 players contesting the clash invariably chase after the ref with a pile of players following the front two. It's like a scrum in rugby at times.The game has changed and evolved plenty times in the past and will continue to do so. Sooner or later, a team will devise a method of avoiding the swarm, increased use of ground hurling may well be the answer.

Followed by the immediate mandatory free awarded.........regardless if there was a foul committed or not.
bbDC
(683 Posts)
Posted: 21-Jun-2012 23:15
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Anyone got a link for the Ard san aer programme the other night?
The Serb
(110 Posts)
Posted: 22-Jun-2012 03:12
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Only being allowed to handle the ball once before striking could alleviate alot of the present day problems with hurling and it would bring in more first time off the cuff hurling that Kilkenny, Dublin, Clare and Tipperary have destroyed with their physical possesion game.
Not Men But Giants
(623 Posts)
Posted: 22-Jun-2012 11:50
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Originally posted by camann:
Clone the Offaly team of the 90's.

Yes!
lovelypoint
(626 Posts)
Posted: 22-Jun-2012 12:29
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Originally posted by Carry on Hurling:
Refs that let the game flow are actually doing it wrong, you should keep that in mind the next time that compliment is paid to a ref, it means the had a bad game....

What is wrong with letting the play flow, and then penalising infringements when the ball goes dead?
lovelypoint
(626 Posts)
Posted: 22-Jun-2012 12:52
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I think ground hurling would counter the swarm tactics, but most county hurling managers have a tunnel vision focus on possession at all costs. I agree that if ground hurling were practiced more, like any other skill of hurling, it would become a more effective weapon to utilise at times. Unfortunately ground hurling all but seems to have died a death, and when you see teams not even being able to consistently take side line cuts without fluffing them completely, I think it is quite obvious how much ground hurling is valued by most teams in the modern game.

I think it has been a particular fallacy of my own county (Waterford) for a long time, and would have made you howl in frustration in the past, when in certain situations a stroke from or along the ground was clearly the most effective option. All I can say, is I am glad we have several footballers on our hurling panel, who can at least use their feet on some of those occasions where taking the ball into hand is simply not an option.

I can understand managers wanting to control the elements of play that are within their control, in this case advocating attaining/ keeping possession at all costs, but how much of this is simply copycat tactics, as opposed to playing each ball in the most effective manner?

The swarm will persist until referees address it. At the moment, it is perfectly acceptable for teams to swarm around players in possession, as if they were a shoal of piranha, all committing minor fouls, with the referee ignoring them as they do not seem too offensive on their own. There is no doubt this has been a key aspect of Kilkenny's game in the last decade, but it is playing the referee at the end of the day. Teams will take advantage of the elements they can, and it is easy to see how such cynical play has spread throughout the game now.

The obvious solutions would seem to be either moving the ball faster, and punishing ruthlessly, ala Tipp in '09 & '10. Ref's need to start penalising the swarm tackles too, and rather than waiting for one 'proper looking' foul, to instead award a free in if there are 2 or 3 minor fouls. This would cut out a lot of the nonsense, and you'd soon see these ugly tactics pieter away, if such cynicism was punished properly.
This message has been edited - 22-jun-2012 @ 12:55
Carry on Hurling
(513 Posts)
Posted: 22-Jun-2012 19:12
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Originally posted by lovelypoint:
What is wrong with letting the play flow, and then penalising infringements when the ball goes dead?

The reason it's wrong is that letting the game flow is a misnomer, as it means not blowing fouls when they occur, which is what a ref should do. If a ref does blow he is castigated as being whistle happy, which is dissent, and undermines his authority.
Letting the game flow allows players to foul persistently, and encourages those players and others around them that they can get away with it.
If refs blow for the first foul they see consistently, the players and teams know they can't get away with them, and should then develop their skills in tackling within the rules. Hooking an opponent is a dying art, something which I think players in all positions should be aiming to attempt at least 3 times a game.
Refs that let the game flow encourage lazy and unskilful play.
If referees were allowed to (by players, mentors, fans & pundits) ref the games as they should, it would create and environment where skilful players would flourish and see an end to the scrums we see in the modern game.

What I think you are saying here is about the advantage rule, which should be applied where possible.
dinnysdwyer
(86 Posts)
Posted: 23-Jun-2012 09:03
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firm believer that ground and first time hurling is the only way teams will pass the Force that is kilkenny. you would want to be at it for a year or two though before getting it up to the standard required
BuzzFledderjohn
(597 Posts)
Posted: 23-Jun-2012 11:24
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Originally posted by dinnysdwyer:
firm believer that ground and first time hurling is the only way teams will pass the Force that is kilkenny. you would want to be at it for a year or two though before getting it up to the standard required

Do you think, then, that Kilkenny will just sit back and watch this happen? Like everything else in hurling, Kilkenny will most likely adopt and perfect any new (or re-introduced) facet of the game.
lovelypoint
(626 Posts)
Posted: 23-Jun-2012 11:33
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Originally posted by Carry on Hurling:
The reason it's wrong is that letting the game flow is a misnomer, as it means not blowing fouls when they occur, which is what a ref should do. If a ref does blow he is castigated as being whistle happy, which is dissent, and undermines his authority.
Letting the game flow allows players to foul persistently, and encourages those players and others around them that they can get away with it.
If refs blow for the first foul they see consistently, the players and teams know they can't get away with them, and should then develop their skills in tackling within the rules. Hooking an opponent is a dying art, something which I think players in all positions should be aiming to attempt at least 3 times a game.
Refs that let the game flow encourage lazy and unskilful play.
If referees were allowed to (by players, mentors, fans & pundits) ref the games as they should, it would create and environment where skilful players would flourish and see an end to the scrums we see in the modern game.What I think you are saying here is about the advantage rule, which should be applied where possible.

Of course what I say is rooted in the advantage rule, where if the team in possession has a dangerous attack going, regardless of whether they have been fouled, then the ref should not blow up until the play has come to an end.

From what you say, I suspect we are in agreement on what 'letting the game flow' should be, namely that advantage should be played wherever possible, and players punished as soon as the play comes to an end. This is my interpretation of 'letting the game flow', as opposed to the ref just rolling over and not punishing any infringements. That is just a free for all, and not the way I would like to see the game refereed.

In any case, my original comment, was in light of most commentary I see, where the only definition of 'letting the game flow' means not refereeing any fouls. My point would be that it would be possible to let the game flow by simply playing advantage and then penalising infringements when the ball goes dead. It would seem we are both in agreement that this is the best way to go, as opposed to taking the referees whistle and notebook away from him..
Blanco
(7,909 Posts)
Posted: 23-Jun-2012 11:35
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Originally posted by BuzzFledderjohn:
Do you think, then, that Kilkenny will just sit back and watch this happen? Like everything else in hurling, Kilkenny will most likely adopt and perfect any new (or re-introduced) facet of the game.

You would swear by some that KK won every AI since Hurling began, up to a few short years ago they were not even on the top of the role of honor in Hurling , they are the best at the moment and have been for awhile but the cycle will eventually run out on this as well , the reason it has gone on so long in hurling is that there is actually so few teams actually looking to really challenge them.

In reality there are only 2 or 3 at most other teams who have any belief or real intention of knocking them off the top , the rest are just making up the numbers happy to be 2nd or 3rd if the chance arises.

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