An Fear Rua - a voice of reason -kieran shannon

caidman

(1,541 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 11:53

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as a rule i dont take much notice of attention seeking pundits like brolly and spillane , in my opinion both are clowns, this is a very balanced and fair article in today's examiner.............well done kieran..

'Champions make their setbacks temporary and their victories permanent. Critics prefer to make their victories temporary and their setbacks permanent '

great and oh so true quote !

Why we should ignore pundits like Joe Brolly
By Kieran Shannon
TUESDAY, JULY 31, 2012
Reading or listening to what passes for most GAA commentary these days, you sometimes wonder why they bother, those brave souls-poor eejits that coach or play inter-county football.

For five straight years Kieran McGeeney has guided Kildare to the All-Ireland series when in the seven seasons before him Kildare hadn’t even made it even once, yet a line of commentators label his team "underachievers" and ask where’s the silverware.

Maybe Kildare are only the fifth or sixth best team in the country, but what’s the shame in that? It seems to be lost on a lot of GAA pundits and writers sceptical of Kildare that they themselves aren’t among the top five nationally in their own profession either.

We call it "Ah but" syndrome. Any achievement a team pulls off can be dismissed by an "Ah but" or a "But sure". Usually it’s in relation to their calibre or list of defeated opponents. "But sure they’ve beaten nobody." Go through this year’s All-Ireland quarter-finalists and it could be levelled at nearly all of them, except Cork, but sure that was only in the Munster championship.

There’s one thing being a critic and another being a cynic. And The Sunday Game resident panellists are the worst offenders of belittling people without whom they wouldn’t have anyone to get paid to commentate about.

Whereas their hurling counterparts Liam Sheedy and Cyril Farrell can observe and enjoy a match between two non-contenders like Wexford and Offaly on its own merits, the triumvirate of Brolly, Spillane and O’Rourke spent the early summer belittling or berating the honest efforts of Division Three teams like Wexford, Longford and Tipperary.

O’Rourke, Brolly and Spillane each in their own right still have a lot to offer GAA punditry but you can’t keep having two or more of them on at once without either a younger, more informed panellist (Dara Ó Cinnéide and Anthony Tohill are sorely missed) or a stronger, more informed anchor.

Last Sunday night was a nadir. While Michael Lyster projected his scepticism of Joe Brolly’s skewed and selective argument on the merits of Kerry, we’d prefer if it had been in the way of facts rather than rolling his eyes.

Brolly’s attack on Kerry and Colm Cooper was the ultimate in "Ah but" punditry. He’s gone close before. All last summer he dismissed every Dublin team of the last 25 years as "chokers". His reservations of Cork are well documented. But the way he downplayed the six All-Irelands Kerry have won over the last 15 years was pathetic.

According to Joe, "on all occasions — this is just a simple fact of life — whenever a team stands and stares them in the face for 70 minutes, Kerry have looked down… I have yet to see this Kerry team win in the face of adversity."

Yes, you have, Joe, if you care to remember. Twice against Armagh in 2000 and again when the counties met in the 2006 All-Ireland quarter-final — call it that year’s final if you want, since you’re so dismissive of Mayo. How can you forget all three days when your beloved Crossmaglen were well represented?

You can’t just judiciously pick last year’s All-Ireland final against Dublin and then forget about Kerry’s victory over the same county in a 2007 All Ireland semi-final that was almost as epic as Derry’s 1993 semi-final win over the Dubs, the game which forged much of your own reputation as a player.

They "faced adversity" against Galway in 2000 and 2008 and triumphed. And when they met proper Cork teams in 2008 and 2009 and in Munster in 2010 and 2011, Kerry, thanks in no small part to Cooper, carved out a way.

Joe can’t keep dismissing Kerry’s 2004 triumph either on the basis that they only beat Mayo; didn’t that the same Mayo beat the mighty Tyrone?

Everyone has "choked’’, Joe. Tyrone in 2004 and 2007 when Mayo and Meath put it up to them. Peter "The Great" got himself suspended in 1997 and sent off in 2001. Mikey Sheehy couldn’t kick a free in Killarney in 1987 a week after conjuring up that last-minute goal down by the Lee.

Maybe it was Joe, in trying to break into TV, who behind the scenes put together that famous "Pele was crap" sequence for Baddiel and Skinner on Fantasy Football.

Maybe Kerry might lose to Donegal next weekend. If they do, it’ll be just like when Tyrone met a hungrier, younger team in Cork in 2009, not because they lacked any bottle.

Everyone loses now and again, even Kerry.

Champions make their setbacks temporary and their victories permanent. Critics prefer to make their victories temporary and their setbacks permanent.

The trick for champions is to ignore the latter.

Maybe we all should until the likes of Joe wise up

Collig

(1,690 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 12:16

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Good article.

Long ball

(84 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 12:20

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Great piece by kieran Shannon as usual. He's definitely one of the top sportswriters in the country.

thehermit

(1,143 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 12:23

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Here here,

In a nutshell what a few of us were trying to argue on a couple of other trends about this.

But I suppose to some, even if Kerry win next Sunday it will be the same 'a sure we only beat Donegal, what pedigree have they?' If they went on to beat Cork in the semi it would be 'a sure Cork never beat ye in Croker, it was expected of ye' and if Kerry won back Sam in September against the Dubs they would be saying 'a sure no team wins back to backs, sure it was set up for Kerry to beat them'.

Cest la Vie!

turncoat

(489 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 12:33

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meh.Spillane got off lightly in that article.

clintonportis

(396 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 13:04

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Originally posted by turncoat:
meh.Spillane got off lightly in that article.

I thought it was a good article but he definitely let Spillane off very lightly. He came across as a pure child on Sunday night.

The Pope of Chilli Town

(14 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 13:39

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I suppose I'll start off by saying that I think both Brolly and Spillane are two of the most blinkered, biased, subjective "analysts" out there who have agendas against several other teams / systems / provinces other than their own and are ridiculously partisan about their own teams / provinces to the point of where they'll defend pretty much any wrong. However, the point of having analysts is to ask the hard questions, offer opinions that they can then back up with facts or at least some evidence to that effect.

I personally think Cooper is a super player who would walk onto any team in the country and that Brolly's criticism of him last weekend was subjective and picked instances as opposed to the overall contribution Cooper has made to the Kerry team. However, his argument did hold water (to an extent) and he was able to back it up with such instances. The point of these analyses is to spark debate and uncover aspects of the game that might be missed by a large proportion of the general populace so I would much rather hear a skewed opinion put in a reasoned argument than hear lads praising a team without analysing why they did well or why the other team wasn't able to stop them etc.

I think Brolly and George Hamilton have similar traits in common in that they single out a star player and if he isn't performing on a particular day then the accusations of the player going "hiding" or "not up for it" or "choking" (in this instance), which ignores previous good performances and is unfair (nobody can have a great game every game). This isn't reasoned analysis but just pandering to the knockers.

This article seems to be a rebuttal to Brolly's analysis (let's forget Spillane's childish antics and predictable, but in this case justified, towing of the line) but seems to suggest that only the mildest criticism can take place. To use the analogy of the RTE soccer panel, that is their appeal - they give credit where it's due and let a team / player have both barrels if he's underperforming / hiding / cheating etc. This is what the GAA panellists also should do in an objective way. If the likes of Brolly and Spillane etc. can't look beyond their own partisan agendas, then there's plenty of reasoned analysts to take their place. The likes of Whelan, O'Cinneide and Parkinson (don't get me started on Tohill - he of "the player is allowed 6 steps with the ball and he's been fouled so he's allowed 6 more" fame) have definitely added some freshness and are prepared to challenge established ideas.

The point is, is analysts don't challenge the ideals and call it as they see it (with reasoned arguments backed up with evidence) then what's the point in them in the first place?

c

(285 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 17:02

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Any chance of a campaign to get rid of Spillane and Brolly and O'Rourke?

South Limerick Referee

(16,613 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 17:10

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The first thing I will say is that the debate the other night was entertaining, and it awoke me from my late night drift into semi-slumber. It was dynamite. Lyster and Spillane stirring and Brolly letting no stone unturned.

I have great time for Brolly, and the reason being that he has his principles and he also knows from his legal background how close he can go to the line without crossing it. I recommend highly his Sunday Newspaper articles. They are brilliant, dynamite, he hammers home points, with cheeky tongue-in-cheek comments thrown in for a bit of wit and more importantly he openly discusses topics that others wouldn't dare mention.

Shannon is an excellent writer, who has fired back a few shots and there is nothing like a tit-for-tat between a couple of media people. I have no doubt Brolly will respond, maybe even in his Sunday Newspaper column and this could get very entertaining yet!!!!!

As for the Gooch, good forward yes, but as good as other forwards in his time? Arguable. In his time as a Kerry player, (2002 to 2012) I would rate Declan O'Sullivan higher and would have rated Dara O'Cinneide higher. Kerry people may not agree but that is my opinion. Gooch would be better than all Cork forwards of that time except Colin Corkery. Daniel Goulding, Colm O'Neill, Donnacha O'Connor etc. have never really given X-Factor performances on a regular enough basis. Gooch is better than any Limerick forward of the era, though the likes of Ian Ryan and Ger Collins are yet young enough to have a say on that. He is better than any Clare or Waterford forward. He is not better than Declan Browne was.

So in a nutshell, I personally, whether people agree or disagree, I would rate Declan Browne, Declan O'Sullivan, Dara O'Cinneide and Colin Corkery as being better within Munster.

This message has been edited - 31-jul-2012 @ 17:11

cerebus

(3,258 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 18:19

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Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
So in a nutshell, I personally, whether people agree or disagree, I would rate Declan Browne, Declan O'Sullivan, Dara O'Cinneide and Colin Corkery as being better within Munster.

Some valid points, Sir.
The issue with Brolly is the hiding behind the hypothetical stranger and the gratuitous attempt to traduce a great sportsman.

Rollover

(370 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 21:09

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if nothing else kieran's balanced and interesting article has just reminded me how bad the football 'punditry' is and so much behind the sensible discussion that goes with hurling matches - would love to keep o rourke but if in doubt get rid of all three- certainly spillane and brolly are unbelieveably boring at this stage....

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 21:36

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Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
The first thing I will say is that the debate the other night was entertaining, and it awoke me from my late night drift into semi-slumber. It was dynamite. Lyster and Spillane stirring and Brolly letting no stone unturned.

Seriously? Dynamite? It was like watching a scene from The Office it was so cringeworthy.

whip n cut

(46 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 21:49

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I have often wondered what the criteria is for these "pundits " having their contracts renewed . Fellas like Kevin Mc Stay - what has he won ? - sitting there all smug telling us what Tomas o Se with a bag of all ireland medals did wrong or right - The game is surely up for Brolly and a few more with him . But maybe not when you have Ryle Nugent and Marty ' I was at the tanning studio today " Morrissey pulling the strings !!!!! I have it on good authority that these guys get €1000 a pop for their days "work "
A tough job - but someone's got to do it , eh licence payers ???!!!!!!!!

Ozzy

(1,867 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 21:52

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Just watched it there on the player. Brolly spent a long time trying to explain that he didn't mean what a reasonable person would take out of the article, clearly his point about Cooper is dubious at its very best. He's been a great player and has performed well in a fair few big games. Don't think Lyster refereed it that fairly either, Spillane didn't get nearly as much time as the Derry man.

Have to say I've lost a bit of respect for Brolly as an analyst over the past few years, seems to be as interested in trotting out his prejudices (often using rather wild language) as in offering analysis. His weak defence on the Sunday Game a year or two back of an article he wrote about Cork illustrated this.

Also read an article by him which was a totally gratuitous attack on Donal Og Cusack. Said that Sean Og had got the freedom of Cork, that in time Donal Og would probably receive it as well and he should probably share it with the Tipp and KK forwards as well, given how they'd brought him to prominence by sending so many goals by him. Also made a crack about how Cusack lying on the ground after letting in a goal was becoming one of the more recognisable sights in Irish sport. Am no fan of Donal Og by any means, but the sneering criticism was quite unfair.

South Limerick Referee

(16,613 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 21:56

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I think people take these things far too seriously. Dunphy and Brady had a go at one another, and people also considered it cringworthy as well.

Originally posted by theface2010:
Seriously? Dynamite? It was like watching a scene from The Office it was so cringeworthy.

frasiercrane

(1,843 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 21:58

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Originally posted by whip n cut:
I have often wondered what the criteria is for these "pundits " having their contracts renewed . Fellas like Kevin Mc Stay - what has he won ? !

an all star and a few Connacht championships.

You don't have to be a multiple all ireland winner to be allowed comment on the games (if that was the case this website wouldn't exist) the most annoying football pundit on the Sunday Game is the one who has won the most.If anything pundits who haven't won so much are preferable as they can bring a more reasonable level of analysis and see things from the perspective of teams who achieve as much as they can and not view a team as a complete failure if it doesn't win the all ireland

This message has been edited - 31-jul-2012 @ 21:58

South Limerick Referee

(16,613 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 22:02

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You see the big issue here is not with the boys there, but with the boys outside who would love to get in on the gravy train. Someone mentioned Anthony Tohill earlier today, but Tohill copped out on a few occasions when video evidence was presented to him. That job is about discussing the controversial and topical moments as much as it is about discussing where the game was won and lost.

Brolly and McStay tick all the boxes on that front. McStay hasnt always been popular in Limerick but I think he is straight out and up front. There are people in Ireland who want sending offs, and suspensions not to be discussed, but that is their tough. These things happen in games, and McStay has every right to discuss them.

People call BBC coverage on Match of the Day bland, but BBC never cop out of the controversial moments.

Originally posted by whip n cut:
I have often wondered what the criteria is for these "pundits " having their contracts renewed . Fellas like Kevin Mc Stay - what has he won ? - sitting there all smug telling us what Tomas o Se with a bag of all ireland medals did wrong or right - The game is surely up for Brolly and a few more with him . But maybe not when you have Ryle Nugent and Marty ' I was at the tanning studio today " Morrissey pulling the strings !!!!! I have it on good authority that these guys get €1000 a pop for their days "work "
A tough job - but someone's got to do it , eh licence payers ???!!!!!!!!

cerebus

(3,258 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 22:10

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Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
..Someone mentioned Anthony Tohill earlier today, but Tohill copped out on a few occasions when video evidence was presented to him.

One bitten, twice shy.

johnny cash

(737 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 22:41

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agreed and close to some of my thoughts on the whole Brolly article

however, Shannon used to get under my skin in the Tribune as he couldnt write a GAA article without referencing quotations from Lance Armstrong and Vince Lombardi! Turned me off him at the time

Originally posted by Collig:
Good article.

caidman

(1,541 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 22:50

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johnny cash -- nothing wrong with vince lombardi quotes , the man is a legend ! go pack go !! :)

rebelrebel30

(8,531 Posts)

Posted: 31-Jul-2012 23:29

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Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
The first thing I will say is that the debate the other night was entertaining, and it awoke me from my late night drift into semi-slumber. It was dynamite. Lyster and Spillane stirring and Brolly letting no stone unturned. I have great time for Brolly, and the reason being that he has his principles and he also knows from his legal background how close he can go to the line without crossing it. I recommend highly his Sunday Newspaper articles. They are brilliant, dynamite, he hammers home points, with cheeky tongue-in-cheek comments thrown in for a bit of wit and more importantly he openly discusses topics that others wouldn't dare mention.Shannon is an excellent writer, who has fired back a few shots and there is nothing like a tit-for-tat between a couple of media people. I have no doubt Brolly will respond, maybe even in his Sunday Newspaper column and this could get very entertaining yet!!!!!As for the Gooch, good forward yes, but as good as other forwards in his time? Arguable. In his time as a Kerry player, (2002 to 2012) I would rate Declan O'Sullivan higher and would have rated Dara O'Cinneide higher. Kerry people may not agree but that is my opinion. Gooch would be better than all Cork forwards of that time except Colin Corkery. Daniel Goulding, Colm O'Neill, Donnacha O'Connor etc. have never really given X-Factor performances on a regular enough basis. Gooch is better than any Limerick forward of the era, though the likes of Ian Ryan and Ger Collins are yet young enough to have a say on that. He is better than any Clare or Waterford forward. He is not better than Declan Browne was. So in a nutshell, I personally, whether people agree or disagree, I would rate Declan Browne, Declan O'Sullivan, Dara O'Cinneide and Colin Corkery as being better within Munster.

SLR, infairness to Goulding and O Neill they are very young and have plenty of time and lets remember Goulding kick out near the line towards the end of the all ireland v Down, pressure and he put it over. Different type of player to Gooch but class all the same. Ditto O Neill.

West Corkman

(80 Posts)

Posted: 01-Aug-2012 02:32

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Lads,
I think the problem here is that because most people (including myself) consider Brolly to be a smug patronising individual who takes a lot of pleasure out of belittleing peoples / teams achievments, then they automatically take the opposite viewpoint to his.

With regard to his current viewpoint I think he his completely wrong on the Gooch. I would rate the Gooch as the 3rd best player I have seen in the last 15 years (behind Maurice Fitz and Canavan. To me his ability and temperament for the big occasion are beyond reproach. The stick that is often used to beat Kerry is the Tyrone one of the last decade. From what I remember the Gooch was one Kerry player who did not go hiding in 05 & 08.My memory of 03 is sketchy.
However, I do think if people calmed down a little Brolly has some valid points to make about the current Kerry team as a whole (although he may be making a poor fist of it). The question he raises about Kerry is one of greatness. I have said it before, but it amazes me to see them compared in the media to current KK hurlers. Clearly the KK hurlers will go down as the greatest team of all times in hurling (they have answered every single question that has been asked of them). The same cannot be said of Kerry. Clearly they are a great team, but in no way could they be considered the greatest team ever in their field, having failed a few critical tests. In my opinion,their achievements rank below the Down team of the 60's or the Tyrone team of the last decade, not to mention of course the greatest team which was O' Dwyers team who blitzed all before them. Its hard to appreciate how mentally tough it is for a team with no prior history of winning to be successful at the highest level, and then to go on and repeat it a number of times. The hype and burden of history that these sides have to deal with is unreal, which makes their achievements all the more remarkable (think Clare hurlers 95-98). In my opinion the current Kerry team, while a great side, would not be in the top 3 of greatest teams football has seen,and I think this is essentially the point Brolly is trying to make. For example, where is the evidence to suggest that their greatness would amount to anymore than the Cork hurlers of the 70's?Yet you rarely here much about that side.

As another example of people taking issue with Brolly, simply because, well its Brolly, consider the fundamental point he was making about the Cork footballers last year.
I think the headline went something like, "Cork, portrayers of dumb football" I remember his fundamental point was that they did not have good natural footballers in their half backline and mid-field (playmakers as such). He even showed some good clips on the Sunday game to explain what he was talking about. He actually referenced the fact that they had some lethal inside forwards, who were been starved of quality ball, by the insistence of the half backs and center field in holding up the ball by trying to mow through every man in front of them. The key was that they did not (and do not) have the ability to kick long accurate and early foot passes to the inside line. I remember been on Rebel GAA at the time and people were up in arms over the whole thing. Then earlier this year, on the same site there were any amount of posts critising Counihan for not playing better footballers and playmakers such as Kiely and O' Sullivan in the half back line, and how this was killing our inside line. So in reality, when you took out the controversial headline stuff, and his smug attitude, then there were some very valid points. This continues to be the case with him.

KeepOnHurling

(3,223 Posts)

Posted: 01-Aug-2012 02:53

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Originally posted by South Limerick Referee:
I have great time for Brolly, and the reason being that he has his principles and he also knows from his legal background how close he can go to the line without crossing it.

Maybe legally he knows what he can write without being sued, but there are moral issues.

A lad who trains hard and tries their best for their county should not end the year with Brolly belittling them on the TV with personal abuse, in his sneery way.

The abuse he has given to Conor Mortimer over many years is disgraceful and says more about Brolly than anything else.
The likes of Brian Dooher should not have had O'Rourke on TV say Tyrone won't win an All-Ireland with him in the team.
Would you not agree SLR?

There's no need to single out individuals for ridicule, no matter how poorly they play. They are amateurs, and have their own lives and jobs to get on with.

Why not just analyse the match like the hurling lads seem able to?
It seems at times that they don't even like football.

thehermit

(1,143 Posts)

Posted: 01-Aug-2012 11:06

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West Cork: I' don't think any of us are arguing that this Kerry side of 2004-12 is the greatest GAA team of all time, just that they have a right to be considered a great team and should go down as perhaps the third greatest Kerry team in history after Micko's 75-86 and the wonderful 1924-32 side.

As regards comparing them with the Cats, while Cody's men are undoubtedly the best hurling side of all time, I gave some thoughts on the 'Gooch love in' trend about what I perceive as certain cases of double standards when comparing hurling and football sides. Basically along the lines of; its thrown at Kerry that Munster football is in poor state and they have easy path to August, yet surely the same is true and more so for Leinster hurling, also while Brolly and others throw it in our face we won soft All Ireland by teams who collapsed in finals, surely the same can be said for Cats in likes of 07/08 but no one seems to throw same accusations at them. Anyway you can take or leave those arguments.

I think what riles us up in Kerry is the lack of respect and credit many pundits and others on sites like this, give to this Kerry team and the wonderful players it contains. We lost a couple of finals (narrowly) to a great Tyrone side and because of that everything we do is thrown on the scrapheap. Easy All Irelands, soft draws, biased ref's etc etc. We are only side to win back to back All Irelands in football in 22 years. We are the only team to make every Q-final, have made the semi-final 11 times in 12 seasons, the finals seven times in eight seasons. And won five all Irelands in years. Give the lads some credit thats all we ask from the like of Brolly!
There is no need to call men like Gooch cokers just to increase your own profile!!

cerebus

(3,258 Posts)

Posted: 01-Aug-2012 11:13

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Originally posted by thehermit:
We are only side to win back to back All Irelands .....

Woah!
They are but beggars that can count their worth.

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