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Topic: Begrudgery or not
c
(285 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 09:06
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An easy accusation to throw around is that someone who rationally analyses somebody's deeds gets accusd of begrudgery. In fact, I think that rather than being a nation of begrudgers, we are a nation that far too easily overlooks flaws through misguided patriotism.

Examples that are not (necessarily) begrudgery:
- Analysing Michelle De Bruin's swimming record
- Being disappointed that a showjumper who has been stripped of an Olympic medal is even allowed back, never mind winning another tainted medal
- Analysing just how good Irish rugby really is
- Asking that the Quinn family pay his debts and respect the judgement of the courts

On the other hand, people who seem to want Katie Taylor, a woman who has genuinely achieved excellence in her field, to lose an Olympic final is begrudgrery or ignorance.
sam
(8,946 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 09:20
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Would agree with your definition.

I think some people just like to try and be clever or different. So what if some people have never been into boxing before, I see nothing wrong with getting behind our boxers as they excel on the world stage.
Bressie
(388 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 09:48
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Good points. Sport is all about debate and arguments.
Not going ridiculously over the top on certain Irish sports stars is not begrudgery.

I really hopes Katie wins the gold medal, but the sort of over the top cheerleading from sites like this and the media is a worry.
It is bound to distract her.
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 09:52
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I hope Taylor wins today but it's the bandwagon culture that grates on me and would make a small part of me want to see some Irish teams or people lose whatever they are in. A lot of Irish teams have a huge amount of followers but they don't have a huge amount of supporters. There is a difference between the two.
Seamus McSpud
(990 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 09:52
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If you challenge the common consensus in this country, you are labelled a begrudger regardless of how much merit there is in your counter argument.

I've been labelled a begrudger here as regards Katie Taylor. As I've said before, I wish her well. She strikes me as a well grounded, modest girl from a good family. I'm impressed with what she has to say about her Christian faith, which is sadly such a rarity now in young people of her generation. She's worked hard in her chosen discipline, which she has dominated for 6-7 years and amongst the 12 participants in the event is most deserving of gold, that's if she can go out and close the deal today. On a personal level for her, I hope she does win.

It doesn't disguise the fact though that I have strong views as regards the sport she participates in. I don't believe it should be in the Olympics and similarly I would question the depth and quality of the field and I won't be tuning in to watch it at 4.45.

If that's been interpreted as the begrudger view well so be it, that makes me a begrudger. From listening to RTE yesterday afternoon, this morning and over the past few days, the line is that Katie Taylor has been as big a sensation at this Olympics as Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt and according to Marty Morrissey the recession has now been forgotten out back home. I'm sure there's no recession for you Marty or the army from RTE that's been sent over to London on a junket, but its not the case for the half a million or so people out of work struggling to put bread on the table.
This message has been edited - 09-aug-2012 @ 09:53
stones_off
(2,815 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 09:53
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Originally posted by Bressie:
Good points. Sport is all about debate and arguments.
Not going ridiculously over the top on certain Irish sports stars is not begrudgery.I really hopes Katie wins the gold medal, but the sort of over the top cheerleading from sites like this and the media is a worry.
It is bound to distract her.

I'm sure Katie Taylor is logging on here between bouts.
Bressie
(388 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 09:59
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Originally posted by stones_off:
I'm sure Katie Taylor is logging on here between bouts.

Perhaps not, but the idiots here are a small sample of the idiots who will be on twitter and meeting her and greeting her over in London.
Unless she lives in a cave between fights, she'll find it hard to distance herself from it.
sam
(8,946 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:01
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Originally posted by staycalm:
I hope Taylor wins today but it's the bandwagon culture that grates on me and would make a small part of me want to see some Irish teams or people lose whatever they are in. A lot of Irish teams have a huge amount of followers but they don't have a huge amount of supporters. There is a difference between the two.

Why does the bandwagon grate. We're a small country, we need to take whatever success comes our way and what's wrong with rowing in behind our boxers, or anyone else who goes well?

The whole GAA season is set-up to encourage bandwagon fans, if you are successful you get matches, if you aren't? You don't get any more matches.

Denise Lewis said on the BBC last night that she "loves the way the Irish get behind their champions". Damn right. Support your country men & women on the world stage!

This message has been edited - 09-aug-2012 @ 10:02
Bressie
(388 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:03
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Originally posted by sam:
Why does the bandwagon grate. We're a small country, we need to take whatever success comes our way and what's wrong with rowing in behind our boxers, or anyone else who goes well? The whole GAA season is set-up to encourage bandwagon fans, if you are successful you get matches, if you aren't? You don't get any more matches. Denise Lewis said on the BBC last night that she "loves the way the Irish get behind their champions". Damn right. Support your country men & women on the world stage!

Oh great.
The Brits are patronising us now!
stones_off
(2,815 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:06
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Originally posted by Bressie:
Perhaps not, but the idiots here are a small sample of the idiots who will be on twitter and meeting her and greeting her over in London.
Unless she lives in a cave between fights, she'll find it hard to distance herself from it.

I presume she's in the Olympic Village.

Cusack Park
(640 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:06
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Originally posted by Seamus McSpud:
If you challenge the common consensus in this country, you are labelled a begrudger regardless of how much merit there is in your counter argument.I've been labelled a begrudger here as regards Katie Taylor. As I've said before, I wish her well. She strikes me as a well grounded, modest girl from a good family. I'm impressed with what she has to say about her Christian faith, which is sadly such a rarity now in young people of her generation. She's worked hard in her chosen discipline, which she has dominated for 6-7 years and amongst the 12 participants in the event is most deserving of gold, that's if she can go out and close the deal today. On a personal level for her, I hope she does win.It doesn't disguise the fact though that I have strong views as regards the sport she participates in. I don't believe it should be in the Olympics and similarly I would question the depth and quality of the field and I won't be tuning in to watch it at 4.45.If that's been interpreted as the begrudger view well so be it, that makes me a begrudger. From listening to RTE yesterday afternoon, this morning and over the past few days, the line is that Katie Taylor has been as big a sensation at this Olympics as Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt and according to Marty Morrissey the recession has now been forgotten out back home. I'm sure there's no recession for you Marty or the army from RTE that's been sent over to London on a junket, but its not the case for the half a million or so people out of work struggling to put bread on the table.
well said seamus
Bressie
(388 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:13
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Originally posted by stones_off:
I presume she's in the Olympic Village.

With dozens of Irish athletes who are tweeting like mad and getting the full force of the frenzy.
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:16
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Originally posted by sam:
Why does the bandwagon grate. We're a small country, we need to take whatever success comes our way and what's wrong with rowing in behind our boxers, or anyone else who goes well? The whole GAA season is set-up to encourage bandwagon fans, if you are successful you get matches, if you aren't? You don't get any more matches. Denise Lewis said on the BBC last night that she "loves the way the Irish get behind their champions". Damn right. Support your country men & women on the world stage!

The GAA has probably the fewest bandwagon supporters out of all the sports in Ireland. Most county finals would have an attendance of around 10,000 on average. And most inter county championship matches have an average of 20,000 people. Thats 10,000 per county, the majority of which will have been at the county final or at least some club matches.

Munster and Leinster have followers. I watched a documentary on Limerick rugby a few weeks ago and the Shannon PRO said he felt that the majority of Munster followers were not real supporters as they have no problem forking out 30 quid to see a pro 12 game on a Saturday but wouldnt go next to near an AIL game from one end of the year to the next.

I always return to the Munster season ticket holder who tried to convince me Ronan O'Gara's club is Munster. That is your typical Munster follower and typical of a lot of sport followers in Ireland these days
This message has been edited - 09-aug-2012 @ 10:17
kilkennycat2004
(Power User)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:17
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Originally posted by sam:
Denise Lewis said on the BBC last night that she "loves the way the Irish get behind their champions". Damn right. Support your country men & women on the world stage!

Was watching that Sam, as someone who travels to UK regularly that's the general reaction they have.
A Waterford lad was telling me he was on holidays lately in Galway & was embarassed by a few of the locals reaction to England during EURO 2012. This totally contrary to the way they support Rep of Ireland.
On the same BBC programme last night it was funny how Gabby backtracked with humour on the Irish Olympic bid joke. Gabby actually represented Leeds on the Rose of Tralee once upon a time by the way. Dad Terry of course was one of our Leeds stars during the glory years.
The biggest begrudgery in Ireland is the civil war attitude to Britain although thankfully , like everything in Ireland, it is changing slowly but surely.
Bressie
(388 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:20
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Originally posted by staycalm:
The GAA has probably the fewest bandwagon supporters out of all the sports in Ireland. Most county finals would have an attendance of around 10,000 on average. And most inter county championship matches have an average of 20,000 people. Thats 10,000 per county, the majority of which will have been at the county final or at least some club matches.

League of Ireland attendances are bigger than GAA league attendances.
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:26
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Originally posted by Bressie:
League of Ireland attendances are bigger than GAA league attendances.

The average attendance in the league of Ireland is 1500. Never mind the inter county league, you would that a club county championship 1/4 final in most counties
This message has been edited - 09-aug-2012 @ 10:28
sniper
(154 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:29
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Her dad has said in an interview that she is in "lockdown" until after the fight avoiding all media and hype.. so unfortunaltly Bressie she's not on here listening to what we have to say.
And as much as Martys comments about the recession would annoy ya, i think a certain percentage of the half a million people will be happy enough not working today and propping up bar stools from the early afternoon... but im not gonna begrudge their enjoyment to what should be a great day for Irish sport, (while sitting in the office with a good chance of missing the fight...)
but sure here we go, here we go, here we goooooooo...COME ON KATIE!!!!
stones_off
(2,815 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:32
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Originally posted by kilkennycat2004:
Was watching that Sam, as someone who travels to UK regularly that's the general reaction they have.
A Waterford lad was telling me he was on holidays lately in Galway & was embarassed by a few of the locals reaction to England during EURO 2012. This totally contrary to the way they support Rep of Ireland.
On the same BBC programme last night it was funny how Gabby backtracked with humour on the Irish Olympic bid joke. Gabby actually represented Leeds on the Rose of Tralee once upon a time by the way. Dad Terry of course was one of our Leeds stars during the glory years.
The biggest begrudgery in Ireland is the civil war attitude to Britain although thankfully , like everything in Ireland, it is changing slowly but surely.

The biggest begrudgery in Ireland, is people complaining about Irish people not following England or Britain?

For some reason now it is compulsory to support Britain/England.
slaneysider
(122 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:32
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Originally posted by staycalm:
The GAA has probably the fewest bandwagon supporters out of all the sports in Ireland. Most county finals would have an attendance of around 10,000 on average. And most inter county championship matches have an average of 20,000 people. Thats 10,000 per county, the majority of which will have been at the county final or at least some club matches.Munster and Leinster have followers. I watched a documentary on Limerick rugby a few weeks ago and the Shannon PRO said he felt that the majority of Munster followers were not real supporters as they have no problem forking out 30 quid to see a pro 12 game on a Saturday but wouldnt go next to near an AIL game from one end of the year to the next.I always return to the Munster season ticket holder who tried to convince me Ronan O'Gara's club is Munster. That is your typical Munster follower and typical of a lot of sport followers in Ireland these days

The GAA has just as many bandwagon jumpers as any sport. Attendances at league games during a season are only a fraction of what they are come championship.

To be fair to the rugby, I regularly attend Leinster games in PRO12 & Heineken cup & they have a consistently solid support for both competitions. The reality is that in the current game the provinces are the clubs for O'Driscoll, O'Connell, etc. I don't know what O'Driscoll's club is but when he retires from Leinster he won't go play in the AIL.

What bugs me about Irish supprt in all codes is that they have 3 songs:
Ole, Ole, Ole
Fields of Athenry
Ireland!, Ireland!
This message has been edited - 09-aug-2012 @ 10:32
theface2010
(3,490 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:38
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Originally posted by staycalm:
The GAA has probably the fewest bandwagon supporters out of all the sports in Ireland.

Haha-good one staycalm. The 82000 who will be at this year's AIF in both codes will be at every league and club game throughout the year will they? There will be plenty of people in CP in September who wouldn't know Henry Sheflin from Paul O'Connell-people like to be associated success that's just the way it is. But Irish people also like to see their own do well and shur what's wrong with that?

Katie Taylor seems like a lovely person and she is widely recognised as the best female boxer in the world for the last 6 or 7 years. A lot of people couldn't give a whit about women's boxing and that's fine too. I really hope she wins gold today because she deserves it-enjoy it for what it is or don't watch. It doesn't really matter either way and I wouldn't be getting too worked up over it.

If you spent half the time doing something productive as you have agonising on here all week about Katie Taylor, your life would be in a much healthier position and that rash might even clear up.
scelp
(1,695 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:49
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Originally posted by stones_off:
The biggest begrudgery in Ireland, is people complaining about Irish people not following England or Britain? For some reason now it is compulsory to support Britain/England.

Stones that is a bit of a bullschitt statement.
There is nothing compulsory
in supporting any team but the childishness with which we greet a loss for the Brits, or are jealous of their victories is just too ridiculous.
And it seems clear enough that the British public do enthusiastically support Irish athletes.
Would it be time for us, at the very least, to have a neutral attitude and treat them as we would say the Germans, the French Or the Aussies, the latter who respect us much less than the Brits do.
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:50
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Originally posted by theface2010:
Haha-good one staycalm. The 82000 who will be at this year's AIF in both codes will be at every league and club game throughout the year will they? There will be plenty of people in CP in September who wouldn't know Henry Sheflin from Paul O'Connell-people like to be associated success that's just the way it is. But Irish people also like to see their own do well and shur what's wrong with that?Katie Taylor seems like a lovely person and she is widely recognised as the best female boxer in the world for the last 6 or 7 years. A lot of people couldn't give a whit about women's boxing and that's fine too. I really hope she wins gold today because she deserves it-enjoy it for what it is or don't watch. It doesn't really matter either way and I wouldn't be getting too worked up over it. If you spent half the time doing something productive as you have agonising on here all week about Katie Taylor, your life would be in a much healthier position and that rash might even clear up.

If you could read properly you would see I said an average of 20,000. I cant expect miracles I suppose.

I couldnt care less about Katie Taylor to be honest. If she wins, big deal. If she loses, likewise. Unlike you I have a brain of my own and not one programmed from years of licking @rse. And you do come across as someone who also does male @arse licking in the literal sense.

Here comes the toys and pram.....
This message has been edited - 09-aug-2012 @ 10:52
staycalm
(1,081 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 10:54
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Originally posted by slaneysider:
The GAA has just as many bandwagon jumpers as any sport. Attendances at league games during a season are only a fraction of what they are come championship. To be fair to the rugby, I regularly attend Leinster games in PRO12 & Heineken cup & they have a consistently solid support for both competitions. The reality is that in the current game the provinces are the clubs for O'Driscoll, O'Connell, etc. I don't know what O'Driscoll's club is but when he retires from Leinster he won't go play in the AIL.What bugs me about Irish supprt in all codes is that they have 3 songs:
Ole, Ole, Ole
Fields of Athenry
Ireland!, Ireland!

Blackrock is his club. And without the clubs there would be no Munster or Leinster. People forget that by ignoring one, you will eventually ruin the other
Cusack Park
(640 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 11:00
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Marty Morrisey on rte now again talking s**te about her
Bicycle Kick
(101 Posts)
Posted: 09-Aug-2012 11:01
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Originally posted by slaneysider:
What bugs me about Irish supprt in all codes is that they have 3 songs:
Ole, Ole, Ole
Fields of Athenry
Ireland!, Ireland!

4 songs! 'You'll never beat the Irish'

Best supporters in the world whatever the sport. And everyone loves us. With Pat Hickey now a Council Member of the IOC, surely he can fix the fans some kind of an award or even a medal for their support in London.

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