An Fear Rua - Work for your dole

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 09:03

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Just listening to some pr1ck pontificating on Newstalk this morning about how Leaving Cert students should research their future positions and "use a bit of shoe leather". Anyway he finished off with the point that people should work/do something for their dole. As much as he came across as a jackass, personally I think this is a great idea.

There are now 300,000 people in this country who are used to working everyday and taking the psychological reward of contributing to society. Through no fault of their own, these people are now out of work and a lot of them, I know for a fact, feel useless and that they are no longer "real" members of society.

I know myself I got made redundant over 3 years ago and I was out of work for 3 months-the first week was grand but after that it got worse and worse until it got to the stage you'd nearly feel guilty for having a pint or a laugh with your friends so I would have been only too happy to do something worthwhile.

The question is how would it work? I'm not sure to be honest-certainly for the 150,000 or so who refuse to work, the more menial jobs like cleaning the streets could be left for them. For many of them, they will be the first generation of their families to do a day's work and you never know they might even enjoy it.

But for the 300,000 more who want to work, how best to utilise their skills? You don't want another jobbridge nonsense whereby employers are just getting free staff. What you want is getting people to utilise their skills to help society as a whole while at the same time getting some sort of reward themselves.

I say this on the same day that Barnardos, that brilliant charity for children, is closed for a week because it doesn't have enough funding to pay it's staff.

P.S this is not a dig at unemployed people and, yes, I do know about Seanie, Fingers, bankers, Bertie, etc.

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 10:03

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There are great courses available free of charge to the Unemployed through the Springboard programme, such as this one.....
http://www.springboardcourses.ie/Higher-Certificate-in-Information-Technology-Systems/Science-Mathematics-and-Computing/Computing/Computer-Science/ViewItem.aspx?ItemTypeID=2&ItemID=1352

Any out of work Sparks would have the necessary skills to pick this material up quickly and would have an excellent opportunity of a different career path with this course under their belt.

theblack&amber

(593 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 10:39

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There's already schemes in place, like the work placement scheme (I think their getting rid of it though) and the internship program, both of which are a monumental cock-up in thinking.

The work placement was a complete joke, you got whatever dole your entitled to and any costs, like travel, lunch etc. were on your own dime. When I was first unemployed I ended up on €80 a week because I'm cohabiting, so where was the motivation for me to go on work placement, especially as most of the jobs were for things like stocking shelves? I'm not knocking people who stock shelves, but having to work 40 hours a week for €80 is effectively slave-labour. Add in that the work placement "employer" is under no obligation to give you anything and effectively the government is giving them free labour. The internship situation is marginally better, as the "employers" only have to top up your dole by a small bit.

In the end the only thing I could do was get the back to education grant and go back to college (I'm going into third year now) as it was the only thing that offered enough money so we could afford to rent and not end up on the street.

I think the idea behind working for your dole is good as long as there's the right thinking behind it. Give people the full dole if they want to go to college, or work part-time in a meaningful and cost effective work placement/internship program, or if they're willing to take up the menial jobs like street cleaning or things like that. Those that don't want to go to college or work or make no attempt to, cut their dole in half.

This message has been edited - 14-aug-2012 @ 10:40

glasandbán

(2,046 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 10:49

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It's too simplistic an argument to make people work for their dole. For example what about someone taking care of children while taking the dole. Unless they're given free childcare or those expenses are covered then they're not going to be able to afford those extra expenses.

In principle it's a good idea but in practice it'd be impossible to implement.

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 11:07

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Originally posted by glasandbán:
It's too simplistic an argument to make people work for their dole. For example what about someone taking care of children while taking the dole. Unless they're given free childcare or those expenses are covered then they're not going to be able to afford those extra expenses.In principle it's a good idea but in practice it'd be impossible to implement.

Difficult yes-impossible no. What it would require would be to look at each individual case and assess whether it is workable or not. The dole is there to ensure that people don't go hungry while looking for work. The situation we have at the moment is that we have a large amount of people who refuse to work as they have everything they need paid for by the state.

This is funded in the main by middle class workers who now have fcuk all disposable income left over after paying their bills and paying their tax which goes towards paying for other people's bills who don't want to work. There is also a large amount of very talented people sat at home who would only love to be doing something worthwhile.

It would be difficult to implement but why do we have fairly dirty streets when there are so many people who literally do nothing from one end of the week to the next? Why are most of our roads gone to pot when there are thousands of construction workers sat at home? Why can't hotels and restaurants fill any vacancies when there are nearly half a million people out of work and being funded by the state?

I know it's hard to ask these questions without creating a them versus us mentality but it is when we address these type of questions that we can start solving our deficit problem.

manfromdelmonte

(2,268 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 11:09

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Make people work one day a week.
Especially the long term unemployed - they need to be made to work.

There are plenty of organisations out there who could do with the help
Sporting organisations
Charities
Community groups
Voluntary groups

People could even learn a few skills, and realise that they are actually able to work

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 12:09

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Originally posted by manfromdelmonte:
Make people work one day a week.
Especially the long term unemployed - they need to be made to work. There are plenty of organisations out there who could do with the help
Sporting organisations
Charities
Community groups
Voluntary groupsPeople could even learn a few skills, and realise that they are actually able to work

This would be along the lines I would be thinking. It's crazy when the likes of Barnardos has to close for a week because of lack of funding. I appreciate not everyone would be suited to caring/charity roles but most people could put a lick of paint onto a community hall or tidy up an old park. It will get people out of the house and contributing to society. It is absolutely crazy to think that there are thousands of people in this country who will go their whole lives without doing an honest days work and they will be funded by taxpayers money no questions asked.

jbrown

(421 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 12:19

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Originally posted by glasandbán:
It's too simplistic an argument to make people work for their dole. For example what about someone taking care of children while taking the dole. Unless they're given free childcare or those expenses are covered then they're not going to be able to afford those extra expenses.In principle it's a good idea but in practice it'd be impossible to implement.

In order to be claiming the dole you must be available for and seeking work, at home minding kids and claiming means you are committing fraud.

For me the solution is to reduce the dole the longer you are unemployed, but give credits for doing fas courses, back to work schemes, voluntary work etc. so for example if do something for 3 months from 12 you get full dole for the other 9 months. Make it realistic so every person on the dole has no excuse.

If people take 3 month work placements they might end up with a job and hold onto it, scratching on the dole is an insult to everybody else.

goldfinger

(61 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 12:35

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In regards to the start of the above posting in relation to claiming while staying at home looking after kids is fraud.I am a single father and to be in receipt of single parents allowance is not the same as the dole.To be on the dole you have to sign monthly and be actively seeking work.On single parent you do not.But if any one has work for me of course I want it.So lads dont paint us all with the one brush.

FTJC

(1,138 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 12:36

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Originally posted by jbrown:
In order to be claiming the dole you must be available for and seeking work, at home minding kids and claiming means you are committing fraud

Are you for freakin' real???

I'm as hardline as anyone but if I lost my job in the morning i'd be claiming the dole and whipping the kids out of the creche(which is akin to a second mortgage)

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 12:40

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Originally posted by jbrown:
For me the solution is to reduce the dole the longer you are unemployed, but give credits for doing fas courses, back to work schemes, voluntary work etc. so for example if do something for 3 months from 12 you get full dole for the other 9 months. Make it realistic so every person on the dole has no excuse.

This is not a bad idea. There is a huge difference between somebody who lost their jobs in the last couple of years and people who couldn't manage the find work in the 6 or 7 years leading up to that when people with no english got off a plane and had a job within a week. If anyone is actively looking for work, doing courses, etc then they should get the full whack. Anyone who isn't then it should be reduced.

inbetweeners

(413 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 13:37

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You are starting from the wrong position Face. You have 300,000 and 150,000 or 450,000 in total. This number is wrong but even if it wasn’t the logistics of putting them all to work in some shape or form would be enormous.

I take it you are mistakenly using Live register numbers; I could be wrong because I saw you mention half a million people out of work as well. The Live register is not a measure of unemployment. There are a host of people included and not included on the Register. For example, there are around 90,000 on the Live register who are already casual or part time workers. There are also about 62,000 people on labour activation programmes not on the Live register but you should not be interested in them because they are already doing something.

It irks me to see people use the Live register number or half a million number. There are a good number of people included in this that are working but happen to be claiming some assistance off the state because they have fallen on hard times. Certain commentators, politicians and media lazily classify them as unemployed. These people make a genuine effort to work and this work should be recognised. So using half a million or whatever as a starting point is just plain wrong and is actually insulting. This is not a rant at you Face but people who should probably know better.

The QNHS is the measure of unemployment in Ireland. Without getting into the details this strips out most of the noise and gives an estimate of the numbers actually unemployed. I take it you have no interest in making people already doing some work, no matter how you value it, work in your scheme.

In Q1 2012, there were 309,000 people unemployed in the state according to the CSO. An alternative number you could use is 357,200 which is the number of people who classify themselves as unemployed. The difference arises because some of these 50,000 odd thousand are working for more than an hour a week but still classify themselves as unemployed. For example, an architect who was made redundant and goes home and works a few hours a week on the family farm. He is classified as employed by the CSO but in his own mind he is unemployed.

Since the whole purpose is to get people currently on the dole not doing anything to work, I suggest you use the 309,200. I think a useful place to start would be the 187,400 long term unemployed – that is those unemployed for over a year. To be honest if this was something you were doing I would whittle that number down even further and as someone suggested working a day a week would be more than enough. There is a good case to be made for those who would be unemployed no matter what to be made work– we all know people like this.

You refer to the Jobsbridge as nonsense. I actually think jobsbridge gets a bad rep. Of course there are employers trying to get free work but the scheme is entirely optional. Nobody is being forced into any position. Any applicant looks at the positions and decides themselves if it is beneficial. There was 6 or 7 interns working at our place and 4 of them got full time jobs on the back of it- one of them was kept on here. Most of these schemes are playing on the margins and no more should be expected off them.

An Carta Bui

(277 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 13:44

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I'm not sure to be honest-certainly for the 150,000 or so who refuse to work, the more menial jobs like cleaning the streets could be left for them. For many of them, they will b[/QUOTE]

Whos a pontificating -------- now ? The 150000 who wont work should have the dole cut back to zero. Whats menial about a cleaning job or is it only for our East European friends to do.

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 13:56

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Originally posted by An Carta Bui:
I'm not sure to be honest-certainly for the 150,000 or so who refuse to work, the more menial jobs like cleaning the streets could be left for them. For many of them, they will b

Whos a pontificating -------- now ? The 150000 who wont work should have the dole cut back to zero. Whats menial about a cleaning job or is it only for our East European friends to do.[/QUOTE]

You're right of course-I didn't mean it like that but I worded it incorrectly.

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 14:03

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@ inbetweeners thanks for a very informed post. I have mixed feelings about the jobbridge scheme-if people are getting jobs out of it then great but I haven't seen much of it and a lot of employers are completely abusing it, my own for one as we took a guy on who is excellent but I'm pretty sure that my employer has no intention of taking him on and is just getting an excellent employee for nothing.

The cost of his diesel and his lunches is more than the extra €50 he is getting on the scheme so it is costing him money to work for us which is a disgrace but the lad just wants to be doing something-how a guy like that is getting the same amount from the state as the lads we all know who won't work is maddening.

Rebus2012

(31 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 14:26

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Originally posted by theface2010:
Just listening to some pr1ck pontificating on Newstalk this morning about how Leaving Cert students should research their future positions and "use a bit of shoe leather". Anyway he finished off with the point that people should work/do something for their dole. As much as he came across as a jackass, personally I think this is a great idea.

As you seem to be in agreement with what was the main point of his statement, what made him as "a pr1ck" as you delightfully put it.

He seemed to be making sense:
- kids should research their optuions and not be rail roadde by parents
- there is shortage of skilled staff for many positions at moment
- we should have central register of all jobs and unemployed to facilitate "matching" of peopel to jobs.

The guy was gerry kenneally from Kerry. he sold company for about 100million couple of years ago to Getty. It was database of photo images.
Instead of resting on his laurels, he's now founded another company in ireland called Tweak (I think) which enables companies world wide to use on line deignsers for company logo's/signage/marketing etc. very novel.

We could do with more of these "pr1cks" and less of the other celtic tiger gurus now being chased by Nama and co.

PS
People should ahve to contribute for their dole. I appreciate the argument about child care but whatver about starting it for those under 25. 10-20 hours a week. Spo rts clubs/charities crying out for volunteers.
have it like Job bridge where there is small top up.

This message has been edited - 14-aug-2012 @ 14:27

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 14:31

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Originally posted by Rebus2012:
As you seem to be in agreement with what was the main point of his statement, what made him as "a pr1ck" as you delightfully put it.

He came across as an arrogant overbearing person. Fair play to him for making a load of money but he came across as very smug but you are right we could certainly do with more entrepreneurs like him.

Rebus2012

(31 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 14:37

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have used job bridge ourselves.

Took on one guy in own company and kept him at end of 6months on as he proved that he added value in area where initially we were unsure. Wouldn't have risked it without. Currently have 2nd person in on similar.

Look at Job bridge website, Munster council have about 12 coaching roles up on it.

Huge oppoertunity for GAA clubs in various areas. Currently working with my own on advertising a couple (not coaching roles yet - more off field)

PS Not sure what it says, but very few irish apply for positions.

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 14:42

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Originally posted by Rebus2012:
have used job bridge ourselves.Took on one guy in own company and kept him at end of 6months on as he proved that he added value in area where initially we were unsure. Wouldn't have risked it without. Currently have 2nd person in on similar.Look at Job bridge website, Munster council have about 12 coaching roles up on it.Huge oppoertunity for GAA clubs in various areas. Currently working with my own on advertising a couple (not coaching roles yet - more off field)PS Not sure what it says, but very few irish apply for positions.

I know for a fact that one of the largest construction company in Ireland did not receive one application from an Irish person for an jobbridge engineering role they had advertised for 6 weeks-not sure what that says either.

Rebus2012

(31 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 15:08

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Originally posted by theface2010:
He came across as an arrogant overbearing person. Fair play to him for making a load of money but he came across as very smug but you are right we could certainly do with more entrepreneurs like him.

I though he simply had a belief in what he was saying and was relaying it in simple direct manner.
Like Michael O'Leary, Constantin Gurgelev , Ed Walsh and co., he's probably long since tired of playing the "inclusive" talking shop with idiot politicians, the idiocy of the general populace and various public sector vested interests and therefore presents his opinions in a uncomplicated way

This message has been edited - 14-aug-2012 @ 15:09

theface2010

(3,490 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 15:16

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Originally posted by Rebus2012:
I though he simply had a belief in what he was saying and was relaying it in simple direct manner.
Like Michael O'Leary, Constantin Gurgelev , Ed Walsh and co., he's probably long since tired of playing the "inclusive" talking shop with idiot politicians, the idiocy of the general populace and various public sector vested interests and therefore presents his opinions in a uncomplicated way

Maybe you're right-I just though he came across as very condescending even though I agreed with a lot of what he was saying.

glasandbán

(2,046 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 15:20

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Originally posted by Rebus2012:
I though he simply had a belief in what he was saying and was relaying it in simple direct manner.
Like Michael O'Leary, Constantin Gurgelev , Ed Walsh and co., he's probably long since tired of playing the "inclusive" talking shop with idiot politicians, the idiocy of the general populace and various public sector vested interests and therefore presents his opinions in a uncomplicated way

Of course he would be completely impartial himself and have no "vested interests"? Just a thought.

jbrown

(421 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 15:39

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Originally posted by FTJC:
Are you for freakin' real???I'm as hardline as anyone but if I lost my job in the morning i'd be claiming the dole and whipping the kids out of the creche(which is akin to a second mortgage)

As far as I understand if you are looking for work, sending off CV's, doing interviews while minding your kids thats fine.

What the poster I was replying to was I think saying is that some people on the dole are not going to look for a job because childcare might be too expensive when they take a job, as far as I know this is considered fraud, but it is understandable why a lot of people couldn't be bothered looking for a job because it simply does not make economic sense, so the government should be rewarding people who go on FAS courses, take temporary jobs, back to work schemes etc.

TippTed

(53 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 15:52

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Originally posted by theface2010:
Just listening to some pr1ck pontificating on Newstalk this morning about how Leaving Cert students should research their future positions and "use a bit of shoe leather". Anyway he finished off with the point that people should work/do something for their dole. As much as he came across as a jackass, personally I think this is a great idea.There are now 300,000 people in this country who are used to working everyday and taking the psychological reward of contributing to society. Through no fault of their own, these people are now out of work and a lot of them, I know for a fact, feel useless and that they are no longer "real" members of society.I know myself I got made redundant over 3 years ago and I was out of work for 3 months-the first week was grand but after that it got worse and worse until it got to the stage you'd nearly feel guilty for having a pint or a laugh with your friends so I would have been only too happy to do something worthwhile.The question is how would it work? I'm not sure to be honest-certainly for the 150,000 or so who refuse to work, the more menial jobs like cleaning the streets could be left for them. For many of them, they will be the first generation of their families to do a day's work and you never know they might even enjoy it.But for the 300,000 more who want to work, how best to utilise their skills? You don't want another jobbridge nonsense whereby employers are just getting free staff. What you want is getting people to utilise their skills to help society as a whole while at the same time getting some sort of reward themselves.I say this on the same day that Barnardos, that brilliant charity for children, is closed for a week because it doesn't have enough funding to pay it's staff.P.S this is not a dig at unemployed people and, yes, I do know about Seanie, Fingers, bankers, Bertie, etc.

People who are too lazy to work or to improve their skills should get absolutely no money from the people who do work in this country.

Larkin

(4,404 Posts)

Posted: 14-Aug-2012 23:44

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There are some good ideas on this issue posted here and we seem to have avoided the usual knob ends, bar the clown above me. I am on a CE scheme and despite getting €20 more than on the dole it still does not pay me to be there because it costs more than that to get in there in my car. Why do I do it then? Well, that's simple to answer. 1. I needed something to get me out of the house. 2. I needed to show any prospective future employers that I was trying to improve myself. I had an eye on the €1500 in training money available as well. But this was taken from us by Noonan and brought down to €500 and even then I thought that at least I could get my hands on it and do some of the courses I wanted to do. How much of it was I allowed to spend? Not a cent, not one. Now the training fund is down to €250. I will stay there because it keeps the rottweilers from the DSP off my case but I am seething with rage that I have been thrown about and left down by the system in such a fashion.

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