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Corks hurling year, a review.
Voice of P ui C
(437 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 12:32
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JBM's appointment at the back of last year gave Cork hurling followers a great boost as to the future of the County Senior team. nobody expected overnight success (only the foolhardy), but with a term of three years for JBM, genuine progress was expected. Year one has exceeded expectations. however, as in all end of year reports we look to the positives and negatives.
POSITIVES---- (1)JBM's youth policy has been a success,he has unearthed some genuine talent ,and there is more in the county, which I daresay he has his eye on.
(2)----He now has an united panel to work on, no questions will be asked, or no underlying currents will be left, if, and when he assembles his squad for next year.
(3)---- Bringing in Dave Matthews as trainer brought newness and a fresh approach to training. JBM will continue to bring new ideas to the training field for the next two years.
NEGATIVES----(1) Unable, to select a settled team for successive games,partly due to a lack of marquee players for key positions.
(2)----Slow, in making the necessary changes, particularly in the earlier games. (I have my own theory, which I will explain later.
SULUTIONS----(1)Continue to trawl the county for more talent, particularly players with strength.
(2)Have a word with the powers that be with regards to the refereeing standards in our local games. Our current players can't cope with the physical (not dirty) nature of the game being played in other counties.
(3)Back to point 2 in NEGATIVES. The 5 man selection
committee(6 if you include Dr Con for his valuable contributions), is it unwieldy???. I totally respect each member as being highly knowledgeable and motivated for the good of Cork hurling. I have observed in a lot of the game this year quite an amount of animated discussion taking place among them, when quick and decisive decisions were needed, maybe a 3 man selection committee would be better.
This post is not a rant, but, the thoughts of a genuine Cork hurling supporter, therefore I would hope any contributors will keep in the same vain.
patmulsshoes
(138 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 12:55
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It's been a positive enough year, I think.
As you say, we have a decent bunch of young players there now - inconsistent, but hopefully that will improve.
Successes:
Nash - Has been good imo and is a weapon from frees/penalties. If Ogie gets back next year it could be interesting.
McDonnell - Was harshly treated after the league, he has the goods IMO
Sweetnam - Need to keep a hold of him, he's excellent.
Paudie Sullivan - I was a doubter but I'm converted.
Plus pretty much all of the panel was exposed to championship hurling
Challenges:
1. We have some lovely forwards but we need to get a little more beef there. JBM needs to get down on his knees and beg Walsh to play next year, he'd b e a serious asset. Pa Cronin is a big boy but I find him maddening to watch at times.
2. We need to use the league to try to find a couple of more players - another scoring forward and a half back would be nice.
3. What to do with the old lads. Personally I think Sean Og and Donal Og are worth keeping around but others may disagree.
Rebel CNC
(4,232 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 12:56
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Either JBM, or if time does not permit, one of his team e.g Kingston, should be given full responsibility for 2013 U21 team with immediate effect
Rebel CNC
(4,232 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 14:01
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Goalkeeping position interesting. Nash was excellent at the shop stopping and controlling his area but needs to learn from Donal Og and read the game better, varying puck outs if needs be. There was little point in putting ball after ball on top of Galway half backs when it was clear they were cleaning up in second half.
Darren McCarthy, the sub keeper could yet be playing outfield this time next year.
Turenne
(1,088 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 15:39
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Originally posted by Voice of P ui C:
(1)JBM's youth policy has been a success,he has unearthed some genuine talent ,and there is more in the county, which I daresay he has his eye on
Like who.
About a Bicycle
(1,741 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 16:17
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Sweetnam may be gone from us, a talented out-half/scrum-half (the size of him!), another one could be lost. But you can't deny a youngfella a chance to make a few bob from his talent.
Regarding our progress, we badly need to find hard forwards, we have no Tim Crowleys, Timmy Macs, even Niall Macs. Naughton is a big disappointment, he is as gifted as anything but he just can't get stuck in. I remember his scores at speed for NTS in the club final in 2006 and thinking this is the real deal. We need someone to win ball for the likes of him and Coughlan. Pa can win it alright, but he can't do anything with it.
The league will be important to us next Spring.
Rebel CNC
(4,232 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 16:18
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In fairness to D Walsh and to the much maligned under age managers, I don't think any diamonds had gone unnoticed until JBM came onto the scene to "discover" them.
However, one wonders do our youngsters arrive at senior stage at same level of development as those of say those of Tipp and KK.
Contrast performances of Noel McGrath and Bonner Maher when they first hit Croke Park for senior c'ship to say Cian McCarthy or Conor Lehane.
Young Galway lads like Coen or Donoghue also seemed much more assured on Sunday compared to their Cork counterparts and they saw the whole Cork (young) half forward line depart the stage well before the end.
Even established players like Horgan or Cronin have yet to produce consistently at business end of c'ship.
Turenne
(1,088 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 16:19
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Originally posted by About a Bicycle:
Pa can win it alright, but he can't do anything with it.
...sweet jaysus...
Turenne
(1,088 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 16:20
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Originally posted by Rebel CNC:
In fairness to D Walsh and to the much maligned under age managers, I don't think any diamonds had gone unnoticed until JBM came onto the scene to "discover" them.
The likes of Stephen Moylan, Darren McCarthy and Daniel Kearney were around, and ignored, when DW was in charge.
Donohill
(732 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 16:39
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Originally posted by Turenne:
The likes of Stephen Moylan, Darren McCarthy and Daniel Kearney were around, and ignored, when DW was in charge.
Have they done anything to prove that they should have been included under Walsh though?
I'd like to hear a Cork person's opinion on this as I wouldn't see as much of the above lads.
McCarthy would have been 4th choice keeper behind a fit Donal Og.
Moylan doesn't seem to have done anything of note (yet). Is he the UCC student? Saw him hurling for college before, didn't stand out, although he was named on the HE team of the year so must be doing something. Is he going well with Douglas?
Kearney looks lively alright, what age is he?
Rebel CNC
(4,232 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 16:43
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Originally posted by Turenne:
The likes of Stephen Moylan, Darren McCarthy and Daniel Kearney were around, and ignored, when DW was in charge.
Fair point but perhaps they were looked at but seen as not quite ready yet. Perhaps if they had reached an AI at minor or u21 level, they may have made the squad last year!!
About a Bicycle
(1,741 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 16:45
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Originally posted by Turenne:
...sweet jaysus...
Ah Turenne, you'd have to admit for the amount of ball he wins, and for the size of him, he spills an awful lot of possession. He scored, I think 3 serious points in the championship this year, but lost loads of other ball. If you were Anthony Cunningham on Sunday, would Pa Cronin been the top of your worry list?
patmulsshoes
(138 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 17:09
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I agree on Cronin, great ball winner and I actually think he has the hurling, it's his option taking that is very poor at times
centreforward
(589 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 17:14
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Originally posted by Voice of P ui C:
NEGATIVES----(1) Unable, to select a settled team for successive games,partly due to a lack of marquee players for key positions.
.......
(2)Have a word with the powers that be with regards to the refereeing standards in our local games. Our current players can't cope with the physical (not dirty) nature of the game being played in other counties.
I don't see not having a settled team as a problem. It gives everyone a chance and encourages competition for places which
brings lads on. If a lad is going well in training he has to be given a chance or else his work rate in training will drop because he'll get disillusioned. If there wasn't competition in the squad you'd be using the same 16/17 players with about 8/9 sitting on the bench all the time.
Also, I don't see the connection between refereeing standards in the county and the players not coping physically....?
Turenne
(1,088 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 17:29
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Originally posted by About a Bicycle:
If you were Anthony Cunningham on Sunday, would Pa Cronin been the top of your worry list?
Yes, of course. Cronin is the most important player on the Cork team, the most valuable one and the one Cork need to play well to win. His use of the ball is fine bar the odd errant handpass and even when he doesn't win the ball cleanly he is so strong that it invariably breaks 50/50. And he does all of this being double marked and invariably fouled.
Just be happy we have Pa, or else we'd be at nothing.
NYcat
(11 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 18:07
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I am a cat but my father(RIP) was from Cork and we both loved skillful hurlers.
I think JBM and Cork achieved a lot this year and I expect Cork to win an AI in the next 2 or 3 years.
The only missing ingredients are a stronger work ethic especially in the front 8, better mental concentration for the entire 70 minutes, a willingness to take the physical punishment and a more united Board, team and supporters.
JBM has created greater competition for places which is key. I liked Kearney and Sweetnam a lot and the forwards are skillful. If JBM takes a leaf out of Cody's book he will motivate the skillful players to compete physically. On the Kilkenny team, Power, Ritchie Hogan, Brian Hogan, Rice and TJ Reid took a while before they could stand up to the punishment. It was players like Lyng, Comerford and Taggy who were the real leaders; always got stuck in from the beginning and worked harder than their more skillful colleagues.
Vs Galway,the Cork forwards properly challenged the Galway backs in the first half - the first time I have seen this in years - but provided no resistance in the 2nd half. I would put the 2nd half down to the natural mental tiredness of going through the qualifiers. There were only 1 and 2 week intervals between 4 games; even Kilkenny needed the 3 weeks after Dublin. In fact, I was impressed at how Cork coped with the 1 week rests for offaly and Wexford.
Remember that Dublin hammered Galway in June of last year. It was that humiliation which led to their revival this year. In fact Dublin played a key role in reviving Kilkenny in 2011 with the League final hammering. A lot of the same Galway players are plaing at a much higher tempo in 2012. There is no reason why Horgan, O'Sullivan, Lehane, Coughlin, Kearney, Sweetnam, Cahillane and the others to be found can't similarly raise their game.
Th Waterford game was a good strategy and was reminiscent of JBM in 1999 - outpoint them in the last 10 minutes.
theblack&amber
(593 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 19:42
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Much better than the last few years, far more competitive, but still an awful lot to do.
Sums it up about right, I think.
About a Bicycle
(1,741 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 19:53
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Originally posted by NYcat:
I am a cat but my father(RIP) was from Cork and we both loved skillful hurlers.I think JBM and Cork achieved a lot this year and I expect Cork to win an AI in the next 2 or 3 years.The only missing ingredients are a stronger work ethic especially in the front 8, better mental concentration for the entire 70 minutes, a willingness to take the physical punishment and a more united Board, team and supporters.JBM has created greater competition for places which is key. I liked Kearney and Sweetnam a lot and the forwards are skillful. If JBM takes a leaf out of Cody's book he will motivate the skillful players to compete physically. On the Kilkenny team, Power, Ritchie Hogan, Brian Hogan, Rice and TJ Reid took a while before they could stand up to the punishment. It was players like Lyng, Comerford and Taggy who were the real leaders; always got stuck in from the beginning and worked harder than their more skillful colleagues.Vs Galway,the Cork forwards properly challenged the Galway backs in the first half - the first time I have seen this in years - but provided no resistance in the 2nd half. I would put the 2nd half down to the natural mental tiredness of going through the qualifiers. There were only 1 and 2 week intervals between 4 games; even Kilkenny needed the 3 weeks after Dublin. In fact, I was impressed at how Cork coped with the 1 week rests for offaly and Wexford.Remember that Dublin hammered Galway in June of last year. It was that humiliation which led to their revival this year. In fact Dublin played a key role in reviving Kilkenny in 2011 with the League final hammering. A lot of the same Galway players are plaing at a much higher tempo in 2012. There is no reason why Horgan, O'Sullivan, Lehane, Coughlin, Kearney, Sweetnam, Cahillane and the others to be found can't similarly raise their game.Th Waterford game was a good strategy and was reminiscent of JBM in 1999 - outpoint them in the last 10 minutes.
Top, top post.
2012
(51 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 21:07
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Originally posted by NYcat:
I am a cat but my father(RIP) was from Cork and we both loved skillful hurlers.I think JBM and Cork achieved a lot this year and I expect Cork to win an AI in the next 2 or 3 years.The only missing ingredients are a stronger work ethic especially in the front 8, better mental concentration for the entire 70 minutes, a willingness to take the physical punishment and a more united Board, team and supporters.JBM has created greater competition for places which is key. I liked Kearney and Sweetnam a lot and the forwards are skillful. If JBM takes a leaf out of Cody's book he will motivate the skillful players to compete physically. On the Kilkenny team, Power, Ritchie Hogan, Brian Hogan, Rice and TJ Reid took a while before they could stand up to the punishment. It was players like Lyng, Comerford and Taggy who were the real leaders; always got stuck in from the beginning and worked harder than their more skillful colleagues.Vs Galway,the Cork forwards properly challenged the Galway backs in the first half - the first time I have seen this in years - but provided no resistance in the 2nd half. I would put the 2nd half down to the natural mental tiredness of going through the qualifiers. There were only 1 and 2 week intervals between 4 games; even Kilkenny needed the 3 weeks after Dublin. In fact, I was impressed at how Cork coped with the 1 week rests for offaly and Wexford.Remember that Dublin hammered Galway in June of last year. It was that humiliation which led to their revival this year. In fact Dublin played a key role in reviving Kilkenny in 2011 with the League final hammering. A lot of the same Galway players are plaing at a much higher tempo in 2012. There is no reason why Horgan, O'Sullivan, Lehane, Coughlin, Kearney, Sweetnam, Cahillane and the others to be found can't similarly raise their game.Th Waterford game was a good strategy and was reminiscent of JBM in 1999 - outpoint them in the last 10 minutes.
Rest after playing Wexford.
Most teams with designs on an AI would run a marathon.
Frankel
(100 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 21:28
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I think things are on the up for Cork. 100% agree Aidan Walsh is a must, ball winner, scoring threat, physical presence. If he was added to a half forward line of Cronin and Lehane that would be a serious threat.
Lehane if he could develop his game and position himself to take the offloads of those two and feed the inside line rather than always going for scores, vary his play. I’m sure this will come he has the right men on the side line to guide him and has oceans of ability.
A lot of matches I have been at Cronin gets a lot of stick, he doesn’t seem to get much support on the pitch and at times Cork have been a one trick pony, launch it down to him, when he does catch it not many around to take the offload. Lot of pressure on one lad, similar to Conlon for Clare need another lad in the half forwards with height to catch ball, preferably one that has pace. Unfortunately lads like that are hard to fine. A Walsh would fix this issue for sure.
The full forward line Paudie Sull, Horgan and one of Caughlan or O’Farrell. The game was there for the taking Sunday, what surprised me was with Galway taking the lead that Cork didn’t get Gardiner on early in 2nd half and bring out Horgan try and knock over a few long range scores it would have forced Galway out, leaving space inside.
I would think Cork will be on a serious weights program over the winter, they won’t be that far away next year, been a while since a Cork team went out and tore into someone other than Tipp, tear in as Tipp and Kilkenny will do Sunday or Galway did against Cats, hurling like your life depended on it. I always see Cork as the natural hurlers but with the game now if you don’t have the aggression and hunger hurling skills are not enough.
I suppose the other problem is Munster will be even more of a mine field in the coming years, Tipp are not going away although a loss Sunday might make things interesting, Clare have a conveyor belt of young lads, Limerick and Waterford proved this year that they are a handful, one or 2 players shy and no more than that.
Drake lad in u21's looked good, is there anyone else on the way up. The minor's this year looked poor Clare murdered them, there surely are better players in Cork coming up.
Turenne
(1,088 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 22:02
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Colm Spillane and Patrick O'Mahony are the two other decent prospects on this years U-21 panel, but both are 2 plus years off this level imo. There isn't anyone else bar the people that are already on the panel.
Zirndorf
(489 Posts)
Posted:
15-Aug-2012 23:09
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Pure s**te???
Rebel CNC
(4,232 Posts)
Posted:
16-Aug-2012 11:26
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Originally posted by Frankel:
.... The minor's this year looked poor Clare murdered them, there surely are better players in Cork coming up.
There are some fine players coming through but not being well seved by the coaching/preparation they receive once they reach minor age group.
Haven't won a minor game (except against Kerry) since 2008.This year was worst for while, losing at home to average Limerick team and then being outclassed by a Clare team, that were subsequently beaten by Tipp and Dublin.
carryharry
(4,804 Posts)
Posted:
16-Aug-2012 11:49
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Looking in from the outside i would see far more positives than negatives Voice of P ui C.
Nash in goals has being the star performer imo. Not easy to fill Donal Og's boots and Nash did in fairness to him.
The run to the league final was hugely postitive in that the supporters really got behind the team again. During the league semi in Thurles you could sense the pep in Cork peoples step again.
JBM had a tough task this year imo, he needed to sit back a little and access his panel as with any manager in his 1st year its a learning curve. A league final & an all ireland semi final is a pretty successful year considering his fresh start.
The one decision JBM made that baffled me slightly was dropping William Egan. From what i have seen of him in the ladt few years, i would rate him very highly. I found that fact that he was dropped very strange (maybe someone can shed some light on this).
I thought Cork had a fine U21 team this year and they should have beaten Tipp, should JBM have looked at more of that panel?
Collig
(1,690 Posts)
Posted:
16-Aug-2012 13:13
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Carryharry, Egan's dropping was nothing other than a dip in form. He'll be back and play in the half back line for Cork for years.
Four of the 2012 u21 team started championship for Cork this year. Not sure many of the others deserved a go this year, maybe next year alright though.
David Drake from Carrigaline is a lovely, skillful hurler but in my opinion, like most Cork forwards these days, he's a bit light and wouldn't be up to the physical stakes (not yet anyway).
Had hopes for Dean Brosnan from the Glen but he seems to be gone off the boil in the last year.
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