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Topic: English and French clubs threaten to pull out of Heineken Cup
perth06
(1,943 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 11:15
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Good article here about English teams involvement in the Heineken Cup and how they believe that qualification is bias in favour of the Celtic nations.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2012/0823/334601-heineken-cup-under-boycott-threat/

Top clubs in England and France are threatening to quit the Heineken Cup and organise a rival competition as they believe the current format is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven Heineken Cups between them, with Leinster winning three of the last four.

Their rivals in England and France believe that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during the RaboDirect Pro12 season.

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty told the Guardian: "Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification.

"The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling.

"We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month.

"Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit-based - the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

"The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field"

The English and French sides believe no more than six Pro12 teams should qualify, although that would put at risk the involvement of Scottish and Italian sides who currently qualify automatically.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro12," McCafferty added.

"It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying.

"Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly-formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup."

McCafferty said he was not prepared to do anything to damage the Aviva Premiership in order to change the qualification system for the Heineken Cup, as the Premiership accounts for 80% of revenues compared to 20% from Europe.

"ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are," he said.

"If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough."

ERC has planned talks for September on the issue.

"We have held meetings with all our shareholders and asked them to draw up proposals which will be considered at next month's meeting," said a spokesman.

"Notice was served by the French and English clubs and the French Rugby Federation at the beginning of June and it was agreed at a board meeting a few days afterwards that we would have a workshop in September after holding briefings with everyone.

"We do not want to enter a war of words with Premiership Rugby, but we have been working away in the background and we are in the second phase of the consultation proces
thehermit
(1,143 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 12:07
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Sounds like sour grapes to me, whatever about the Top 14, the Aviva Premiership is a poor enough competition and I'd say all the Irish provinces and Welsh divisional sides would be very competitive in it. And how are you meant to meaningfully spread a sport if you don't encourage participation from Italian clubs.
sam
(8,946 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 12:38
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Think they have a point. Everyone should have to fight for qualification. It totally skews the results that our teams give the ERC everything whereas the majority of other teams are more concerned with their domestic competition, so anything to give the Pro12 a bit more meaning can only be good.
stones_off
(2,815 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 13:15
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There is certainly massive issues with Heineken Cup, but the big problem is the number of countries and teams that play the game. But in stereotypically fashion the solution (as with most "solutions" that rugby come up with) is try restrict the access for smaller teams, in this case Italy and Scotland, that is really going to improve the product.

Also ignoring the elephant in the room, that English and French players play too many matches.

The IRB won't let the form a new competition.
theface2010
(3,490 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 13:28
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He has a point alright it is much tougher for English and French teams to win as they play a lot more games-tricky one to find a solution for this as without excluding most likely all Scottish and Italian teams, then there is no way around it. The Rabo is a young league so it has a disadvantage that there aren't historical rivalries between most teams and therefore less interest.

In saying that, any year an Irish team has won it, they have been the best team in it and, certainly for the last 2 years, Leinster are easily the best team in Europe and no amount of changing the format would have helped English or French teams beat them, especially an English team.
Rufty
(600 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 13:38
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If the English team want to rest players may I suggest binning the pointless and poorly attended Anglo-Welsh Cup? Only the very final stages pull in a decent crowd.

Had heard this on the grape vine at the local club here (in London) and the English lads I play with were fairly unanimous that this is merely a money grab attempt by the big two nations yet again.

The argument holds no logic. Even with the squad rotation in place; Munster, Leinster and Ulster all finish near the top of the Pro12 every year.

Rather than look at the problems in their own system and not being willing to adapt their own club logistics of managing their players, they're striking out in a bid to get more cash from the whole thing. Very much not in the spirit of the game!
Mannie
(398 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 15:33
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Have to agree with their point. Irish provinces don't have to play half the matches that the English and French clubs play therefore get far more rest and superior preparation. What a joke. Its unfair to allow an uneven playing field. Wasn't there a thread about this a while back?
stones_off
(2,815 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 15:48
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Like every sport.
Blanco
(7,909 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:02
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Do they not cry wolf on this every year , every year there is a story about the English an French pulling out and every year it turns out to be an idle threat.
Mike Baldwin
(26 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:12
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Originally posted by thehermit:
Sounds like sour grapes to me, whatever about the Top 14, the Aviva Premiership is a poor enough competition and I'd say all the Irish provinces and Welsh divisional sides would be very competitive in it.
of course they would, they are provincial teams as opposed to proper club teams that compete like in England or France, I'd love to how great Cork Con or Shannon would do on their own in the beer cup
faithfulfan
(258 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:20
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Originally posted by stones_off:
Like every sport.

Nail on head, no such thing as a level playing field in this regard, they wish to profit at another teams expense. No ideal solution.
stones_off
(2,815 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:27
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Originally posted by Mike Baldwin:
of course they would, they are provincial teams as opposed to proper club teams that compete like in England or France, I'd love to how great Cork Con or Shannon would do on their own in the beer cup

This has been answered a million times, comparing Shannon and Leicester is like comparing Ballynanty Rovers and Man Utd.
Glór na ngael
(1,198 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:38
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Originally posted by stones_off:
This has been answered a million times, comparing Shannon and Leicester is like comparing Ballynanty Rovers and Man Utd.

Agreed, it's much more instructive to compare the likes of Munster and Leinster to Premiership or Top-14 clubs in terms of budget. Some of the bigger French and English clubs have budgets that are maybe two-thirds or three-quarters of the IRFU's total budget, so this Cork Con/ Shannon analogy is a red herring.
perth06
(1,943 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:41
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Do you know the budget of theses larger French and English teams? Do you have examples or are you just guessing?
Originally posted by Glór na ngael:
Agreed, it's much more instructive to compare the likes of Munster and Leinster to Premiership or Top-14 clubs in terms of budget. Some of the bigger French and English clubs have budgets that are maybe two-thirds or three-quarters of the IRFU's total budget, so this Cork Con/ Shannon analogy is a red herring.
theface2010
(3,490 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:52
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Originally posted by perth06:
Do you know the budget of theses larger French and English teams? Do you have examples or are you just guessing?

Toulouse's budget last year was around €30m afaik-Clermont's and Racing Metro's wouldn't be far off that figure. Munster and Leinster regularly beat these teams on a fraction of their budgets. The French teams want to change that by squeezing even more money out of the HC-this money would come from the Rabo teams allocation. English and French teams already account for over half of the revenue from the competition with the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians divying up the leftovers.
perth06
(1,943 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 16:55
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http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-the-building-of-an-empire-2655183.html

Brian O'Driscoll, Jamie Heaslip and Sexton, to name but three whose combined salaries soar beyond seven figures, are all paid with cheques endorsed by Lansdowne Road HQ, not Donnybrook, do the French clubs you mentioned pay there players or is it the French Rugby Union?

Where did you get these figures by the way?Have you a link?Im not saying your wrong, i just want to see the articles.
Originally posted by theface2010:
Toulouse's budget last year was around €30m afaik-Clermont's and Racing Metro's wouldn't be far off that figure. Munster and Leinster regularly beat these teams on a fraction of their budgets. The French teams want to change that by squeezing even more money out of the HC-this money would come from the Rabo teams allocation. English and French teams already account for over half of the revenue from the competition with the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians divying up the leftovers.
stones_off
(2,815 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 17:01
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Originally posted by perth06:
Do you know the budget of theses larger French and English teams? Do you have examples or are you just guessing?

You can get the budget fairly easily off the internet. Toulouse's budget is around 33 million again that is not comparing apples with apples. http://www.rencontresaxv.fr/2011/08/16/toulouse-toujours-le-plus-gros-budget-du-top-14/

But the point I was making is that there are 11 rugby clubs in Leicestershire, there are 13 rugby clubs in Limerick. Lecestershire is 5 times bigger. The clubs in leicestershire were always feeder clubs for lecesiter tigers.

Again the big problem is the lack of countries that play rugby.
let it long
(1,214 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 17:05
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Sour grapes outta the Poms and the Surrender monkeys on this one. They're not good enough to win it so they throw the toys out of the pram. Leinster finished second in the pro12 this year and won the HC. Where is the evidence they weren't trying here. Same goes for Munster and Leinster.

The English need to face up to the fact that the premiership is about as good as their soccer version. In other words its crap in world terms. Useless defence and cricket scores ran up in every game. They have huge advantages over the Celtic nations in terms of finance, playing population etc. But the fact remains that Connaught, the runt of the Irish litter, would fare quite well in the premiership. Probably top 8.

As for the french, some Champions league soccer teams would like to have the Sponsers, budget and squads that these guys have but, as they've proved with their international Rugby and Soccer teams, they have a mental block about playing away from french soil. Time for them to man up and stop bitching.
theface2010
(3,490 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 17:07
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Originally posted by perth06:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-the-building-of-an-empire-2655183.htmlBrian O'Driscoll, Jamie Heaslip and Sexton, to name but three whose combined salaries soar beyond seven figures, are all paid with cheques endorsed by Lansdowne Road HQ, not Donnybrook, do the French clubs you mentioned pay there players or is it the French Rugby Union? Where did you get these figures by the way?Have you a link?Im not saying your wrong, i just want to see the articles.

The disparity in budgets are well known perth and not disputed by anyone in the game-I have a cr@p connection at the moment and I will post articles later but here are the budgets for last season. There are teams in the French 2nd tier with bigger budgets than the Welsh teams.

Top14 budgets for 2011-2012 season
Most of the clubs follow increasing, Toulouse are impressive.

1. Toulouse 33,1M€ (+3,57M€ compared to previous season)
2. Clermont 24,1M€ (+3,15M€)
3. Racing-Métro 22,4 (+3,46M€)
4. Stade Français 21,3M€ (+2,02M€)
5. Toulon 19,7M€ (+0,65M€)
6. Bayonne 17,2M€ (+1,45M€)
7. Montpellier 17,2M€ (+2,19M€)
8. Biarritz 16,6M€ (+1,21M€)
9. Perpignan 15,3M€ (+1,22M€)
10. Castres 15,1M€ (+1,16M€)
11. Lyon 14,8M€ (Promoted)
12. Brive 13,7M€ (-0,35M€)
13. Agen 11,9M€ (+ 2,09M€)
14. Bordeaux-Bègles 8M€ (Promoted)
perth06
(1,943 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 17:11
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Thanks for that face, however im assuming that the French clubs pay the wages of their own players unlike the example I gave of the Leinster Irish Internationals stitution earlier.
Originally posted by theface2010:
The disparity in budgets are well known perth and not disputed by anyone in the game-I have a cr@p connection at the moment and I will post articles later but here are the budgets for last season. There are teams in the French 2nd tier with bigger budgets than the Welsh teams.Top14 budgets for 2011-2012 season
Most of the clubs follow increasing, Toulouse are impressive.1. Toulouse 33,1M€ (+3,57M€ compared to previous season)
2. Clermont 24,1M€ (+3,15M€)
3. Racing-Métro 22,4 (+3,46M€)
4. Stade Français 21,3M€ (+2,02M€)
5. Toulon 19,7M€ (+0,65M€)
6. Bayonne 17,2M€ (+1,45M€)
7. Montpellier 17,2M€ (+2,19M€)
8. Biarritz 16,6M€ (+1,21M€)
9. Perpignan 15,3M€ (+1,22M€)
10. Castres 15,1M€ (+1,16M€)
11. Lyon 14,8M€ (Promoted)
12. Brive 13,7M€ (-0,35M€)
13. Agen 11,9M€ (+ 2,09M€)
14. Bordeaux-Bègles 8M€ (Promoted)
theface2010
(3,490 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 17:24
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Originally posted by perth06:
Thanks for that face, however im assuming that the French clubs pay the wages of their own players unlike the example I gave of the Leinster Irish Internationals stitution earlier.

Yes-Irish internationals have central contracts from the IRFU which is why they can dictate when they play for their provinces. Afaik the biggest earner would be BO'D on about €350k-compare that to Perpignan paying Dan Carter €600k to come and play for 6 months. As far as I know though, BO'D's company has been earning about €1m a year for the last few years through other revenues on top of his contract-fair play to him he deserves it.
perth06
(1,943 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 17:31
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As does Dan, how much is Luke McAillster on in France, is there a way to look the wages up as well?
Originally posted by theface2010:
Yes-Irish internationals have central contracts from the IRFU which is why they can dictate when they play for their provinces. Afaik the biggest earner would be BO'D on about €350k-compare that to Perpignan paying Dan Carter €600k to come and play for 6 months. As far as I know though, BO'D's company has been earning about €1m a year for the last few years through other revenues on top of his contract-fair play to him he deserves it.
Bressie
(388 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 17:37
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Originally posted by theface2010:
Afaik the biggest earner would be BO'D on about €350k-compare that to Perpignan paying Dan Carter €600k to come and play for 6 months. As far as I know though, BO'D's company has been earning about €1m a year for the last few years through other revenues on top of his contract-fair play to him he deserves it.

He gets royalties for the Ross O'Carroll Kelly biographies!
Yojimbo
(13,949 Posts)
Posted: 23-Aug-2012 22:59
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Originally posted by let it long:
Sour grapes outta the Poms and the Surrender monkeys on this one. They're not good enough to win it so they throw the toys out of the pram.

Couldn't agree more; they haven't been good enough to beat our 'goys', and now they're using their clout to get us handicapped
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