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Topic:
Michael Collins
irishmagic
(1,944 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 16:18
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Watched this again last night. The inaccuracies are appalling especially the civil war bits.Dev outside the pub in cork, Harry boland shot in the liffey instead of a hotel.I enjoyed it when it came out but now see it as pure hollywood. The pity is the true story was just as marketable.
Superb cast. If Kitty had looked like julia the civil war would have started early between harry and mick.
Roberto Jordan
(825 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 16:42
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Originally posted by irishmagic:
Watched this again last night. The inaccuracies are appalling especially the civil war bits.Dev outside the pub in cork, Harry boland shot in the liffey instead of a hotel.I enjoyed it when it came out but now see it as pure hollywood. The pity is the true story was just as marketable.
Superb cast. If Kitty had looked like julia the civil war would have started early between harry and mick.
Not going to start the rant I could regarding the missed opportunity that that movie was between gross inaccuracy and mis-representation of personality....but even in casting it was off....Neeson is a fine actor but he was far far too old to play Collins....especially if you allow for the fact that many of the photos reproduced of Collins are from the very end of his life when stress and the uniform he donned in July/ August 22 added to an aging process that is most notable if his Volunteers portrait from 1915/16 , or even the shot of him outside the Sinn Fein offices in 1917 , is compared to later ones....either way he was a 32 yeard old who looked in or around his age....not a middle aged man.....( plus b&W photos of the period arent exactly flattering)
Similarly, if I recall, Brendan Gleeson is shown as his right hand man on the day of the ambush ( or execution if you are Enda Kenny!!).....google Emmet Dalton and find the passport type picture of him in his National Army uniform...a scrawny younng fella in his mid 20's with a ratty officers moustache......i.e. not Brendan Gleeson.....I dont expect directors to use lookalikes but some physical resemblance is needed to convey character and tone......I was too young to spot all this at the time but it is annoying given I do recall Neeson and the charlatan writer director Jordan saying how they worked to capture the man....
the reason it galls me is that I believe Jordan to be incapable of making an irish movie that reflects anything close to reality....note his dismal effort at getting colin farrell to speak with a cork accent in "Ondine"...worst irish accent since darby o'Gill and darby O'Gill was porbably closer......but despite this for a whle in teh 80's and 90's he was seen as an "anti-establishment" figure who could pontificate on teh country ...nothing in his work says he knows anymore about ireland outside "SoCoDo" than any other Dallkey resident....
Ken Loach put all involved to shame with The wind that shakes the barley.....but then again he actually tried to understand the people he was portraying and their background...rather than assuming that he already did....
lopper
(1,990 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 17:13
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I can't actually watch the film any more because of the inaccuracies. Which is a pity because from a lot of aspects other than the historical one, it's a good film. Enjoyed it a lot more the first 1-10 times I saw it, before I knew more about the history.
Glór na ngael
(1,198 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 17:36
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The biggest error/ misrepresentation in the film for me is the execution of Ned Broy by the British. Ned Broy survived the War of Independence/Civil War period and was so well-known there was a Garda division nicknamed after him! The Broy Harriers were prominent during the 'second round of the Civil War' in the 1930s. And obviously, the allegation that Dev directly ordered Collins's assassination has never been mooted by any serious historian.
Impossible for me to take it seriously after that.
yankeelad
(5,535 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 19:14
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The wind that shakes the barely was an excellent movie.Jordan makes movies the Hollywood way which is please do not confuse me with the facts.The movie was pure sihte and was a shame to see such a fine actor as Neeson being wasted in what should have been a great role playing a giant of a man in Irish history
maroonandwhite
(1,069 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 19:30
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Anyone in the know care to list the inaccuracies or point me to a good review of them etc just out of pure personal interest.
Hombre
(62 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 19:31
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Agree with all the criticisms above. A missed opportunity by Jordan who apparently waited years to make this movie. Gleason actually made a better fist of the Collins role in a tv drama called 'the Treaty'.
Ned Broy served as Garda Commissioner subsequently.
If there was a remake who would play Collins? Gillian Murphy? Fassbender?
the moose
(819 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 19:34
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Emmet Dalton said in an interview on RTE that on the day Collins was shot, we visited a lot of pubs.
Hombre
(62 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 19:35
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I ment Cillian Murphy, obviously.Another I accuracy was that there were no car bombs used during the war of independence , nor do I believe were any petrol bombs used.
Roberto Jordan
(825 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 20:09
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Originally posted by the moose:
Emmet Dalton said in an interview on RTE that on the day Collins was shot, we visited a lot of pubs.
they were well on it. They hd a drink in Skibb and then , I believe, stopped at Sams Cross and Clon , think they kept going through Bandon but Dalton admitted they were not at their best. Thre is a photograh from in or around july./ August 22 of Dalton and Collins together in national army uniform that conveys that these were very young men that circumstnace had elevated to senior positions.
At beal na blath Dalton ordered the driver to keep going but Collins countermanded saying that they would stop and fight.
The commanders of the anti-trety forces involved were in the pub down the road when the shooting started btw.
Dalton had to put up with some awful innuendo in later years, most likley it woudl appear because he was from the same wing of the national army as Collins in some ways i.e. he had no stomach for civil war and wanted to find a way out. He left the army and ended up in filmmaking.
Other more ruthless men in givernment and the national army then embarked on their tit for tat stuff ( Collins Dub Guard were particualry bad for this) and extra-judicial executions of prisoners ( the true-blue wing such as kevin o'higgins et al whose bona-fides as ever having being republicans doesnt look great in hindsight)
Despite this reluctance dalton did his duty at all times, he personally took over aiming the guns that bombarded the four courts due to his mens inexperience ( prior to joining the IRA he was an officer on the western front) and he also proposed the Fenit amphibious landings)
Roberto Jordan
(825 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 20:15
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Originally posted by maroonandwhite:
Anyone in the know care to list the inaccuracies or point me to a good review of them etc just out of pure personal interest.
The list of inaccuracies is too long to even contemplate giving exhaustively. Any movie will have to take some liberties with the truth....but both the specific scences & events ( from the opening with Dev & collins up against a fence through to the closing) and the tone of the entire thing were entirely off in my opinion. Just an awful effort.
As I mention above perhaps the grossest in-accuracies were in casting....based on the movie you would think Collins was 40 and dev the wrong side of 50....whereas during teh "4 glorious years" collins was in his late 20's early 30's and Dev in his 30's.
As an aside given this is a GAA site, even Bloody Sunday was wrong, no armoured cars were involved, rather soldiers & RIC men shooting indiscriminatley into the stands.
Larkin
(4,404 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 20:22
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Originally posted by Glór na ngael:
The biggest error/ misrepresentation in the film for me is the execution of Ned Broy by the British. Ned Broy survived the War of Independence/Civil War period and was so well-known there was a Garda division nicknamed after him! The Broy Harriers were prominent during the 'second round of the Civil War' in the 1930s. And obviously, the allegation that Dev directly ordered Collins's assassination has never been mooted by any serious historian.Impossible for me to take it seriously after that.
I enjoyed the film first time but even then and I am no historian, I could see the glaring errors. As someone else said there was no need to embellish the story because the original was brilliant enough.
This morning I was doing some work with young people and they had all seen the movie and all believed the story as presented. What a shame but we spent most of the morning looking for the real story and even though we have a lot of work to do on it, these city kids loved the whole thing.
cerebus
(3,258 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 22:16
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Originally posted by maroonandwhite:
Anyone in the know care to list the inaccuracies or point me to a good review of them.
Yerra the Cork bois are never that accurate with their shooting.
The Penstir
(153 Posts)
Posted:
28-Aug-2012 22:43
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Originally posted by cerebus:
Yerra the Cork bois are never that accurate with their shooting.
Classic comment cerebus i'm in the knots laughing here.
An Early Bath
(550 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 00:19
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Originally posted by Roberto Jordan:
The list of inaccuracies is too long to even contemplate giving exhaustively. Any movie will have to take some liberties with the truth....but both the specific scences & events ( from the opening with Dev & collins up against a fence through to the closing) and the tone of the entire thing were entirely off in my opinion. Just an awful effort.As I mention above perhaps the grossest in-accuracies were in casting....based on the movie you would think Collins was 40 and dev the wrong side of 50....whereas during teh "4 glorious years" collins was in his late 20's early 30's and Dev in his 30's.As an aside given this is a GAA site, even Bloody Sunday was wrong, no armoured cars were involved, rather soldiers & RIC men shooting indiscriminatley into the stands.
Agreed on the ages, but you'd have to agree that Alan Rickmans was a great choice for De Valera, they are very similar in appearance, even if Rickman was 10-15 years older than the character he was supposed to be playing. But then again, what actors play people their own age anyway?
bluelim
(408 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 00:32
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Originally posted by maroonandwhite:
Anyone in the know care to list the inaccuracies or point me to a good review of them etc just out of pure personal interest.
Liam Neeson's use of the word 'G-Men' to describe enemy agents / surveillance personnel. That term wasn't coined until the 1930's when it was blurted out by a gangster cornered by the FBI.
paddy last
(23 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 01:11
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Originally posted by An Early Bath:
Agreed on the ages, but you'd have to agree that Alan Rickmans was a great choice for De Valera, they are very similar in appearance, even if Rickman was 10-15 years older than the character he was supposed to be playing. But then again, what actors play people their own age anyway?
Jaysus i dont know. His accent was atrocious and the way he spoke was well weird.
Zirndorf
(489 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 08:48
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ROxDv-FVPc
This will explain it all to ye lot
An Carta Bui
(277 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 09:37
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Access some of the statements of members of The Squad on the Bureau of Military Website and it will give a proper account of the activities of the time not the Hollywood version
lopper
(1,990 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 09:44
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Originally posted by bluelim:
Liam Neeson's use of the word 'G-Men' to describe enemy agents / surveillance personnel. That term wasn't coined until the 1930's when it was blurted out by a gangster cornered by the FBI.
Of all the inaccuracies I dunno about that one, G-men was a reference to the detective G-Division of the Dublin Metropolitan Police.
zozimus
(367 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 09:57
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Originally posted by paddy last:
Jaysus i dont know. His accent was atrocious and the way he spoke was well weird.
That's the point. Rickman was the same.
bluelim
(408 Posts)
Posted:
29-Aug-2012 10:30
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Originally posted by lopper:
Of all the inaccuracies I dunno about that one, G-men was a reference to the detective G-Division of the Dublin Metropolitan Police.
Struth!
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