An Fear Rua - Croke Park Agreement ...dead in the water?

Hitch

(3,644 Posts)

Posted: 31-Aug-2012 21:05

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Dr Reilly certainly seems to think so. It's getting interesting in this country!

Blanco

(7,909 Posts)

Posted: 31-Aug-2012 22:24

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He said it clearly today that it is impossible to maintain services at a reasonable state and to make the cuts he has to in the next budget without revisiting the the Croke Park agreement , 70% of his budget is on wages , some of them on very very generous terms,ironically he negotiated on behalf of the consultants for their last rise.

He talked as well about the massive amount of absenteeism and sick pay been paid from his department and how powerless he is tom do anything because of Croke Park, he says all he can do is release the figures on this and try and shame them.

He said it was the same in other departments and called on other TD's to back him, but Gilmore would rather walk out of the Government than give an inch on Croke Park even if it drags down the country.

Ruarai Quinn said tonight it is all the Trioke's fault , when are we ever going to grow up an take responsibility for ourself's , blame everyone else while keeping our heads in the sand seems to be the plan.

dubliner 2

(10,823 Posts)

Posted: 31-Aug-2012 22:31

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I think for certain elements of the public sector its time to go it alone again. If that makes me selfish so be it but it is common knowledge that there are thousands of pen pushers in the health sector getting paid enormous sums of money for doing nothing.

The vast majority of teachers, guards, nurses and other front line workers actually have work to do, do their work and just get on with it. I don't believe it is fair to lump us in with health services clerical staff, planning officials and others who have no work to do. Yet we're the first to get a kicking when it is more than clear that there are many people employed who actually do damn all. I certainly don't want to take a pay cut just to keep people in jobs where there's actually no work to do.

But I expect that's exactly what our unions will suggest.

This message has been edited - 31-aug-2012 @ 22:33

Blanco

(7,909 Posts)

Posted: 31-Aug-2012 22:42

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Originally posted by dubliner 2:
I think for certain elements of the public sector its time to go it alone again. If that makes me selfish so be it .

That is what exactly needs to happen , this collective bargaining is killing the country, those who are not overpaid and under-worked are protecting those who are, in the end every one will just fall down.

It was put to O'Reilly tonight that he could have saved nearly 90% of yesterdays cuts by renegotiating the consultants fee's and they would still be the best paid in Europe after it.

He acknowledged there was big savings to made on the salaries of the very well paid and they would still be very paid afterwards but he was powerless to do anything because of the current agreement.

let it long

(1,214 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 00:16

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Originally posted by Blanco:
That is what exactly needs to happen , this collective bargaining is killing the country, those who are not overpaid and under-worked are protecting those who are, in the end every one will just fall down.It was put to O'Reilly tonight that he could have saved nearly 90% of yesterdays cuts by renegotiating the consultants fee's and they would still be the best paid in Europe after it.He acknowledged there was big savings to made on the salaries of the very well paid and they would still be very paid afterwards but he was powerless to do anything because of the current agreement.

Social partnership murdered this country. Imagine giving everyone a raise on the understanding that no one sector would kick up a fuss and go on strike. Thats what social partnership amounted to. It was and is a joke of a system whose only use was keeping that bulbous nosed clown in power for more years than I care to remember and needs to be kicked to touch quickly.

Pog Mahone

(9,387 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 09:38

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Originally posted by let it long:
Social partnership murdered this country. Imagine giving everyone a raise on the understanding that no one sector would kick up a fuss and go on strike. Thats what social partnership amounted to. It was and is a joke of a system whose only use was keeping that bulbous nosed clown in power for more years than I care to remember and needs to be kicked to touch quickly.

While I can understand your sentiment, and it's time may have passed (for the moment) but I would argue that it was a good thing at the time, both for the country and its people. It virtually removed the concept of strikes and industrial action, something that even the most militant unions would now find hard to go back to - I don't know what the average days lost to industrial action were before and after the introduction of social partnership (I'm sure they're available somewhere) but I would imagine the contrast was pretty significant. It also ensured that the unions/workers with most muscle (those with the power to bring the country to a standstill) didn't gain significant advantage over the weakest, which surely can't have been a bad thing. IMO it served it's purpose, very well to begin with but probably less so over time. However there will always be a need to protect the most vulnerable, yesterday's ludicrous decision against the Pakistani hotel worker being just the latest example, so some form of social partnership may be needed again when we come out of the recession (which we will)

slaneysider

(122 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 10:45

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Eamonn Gilmore said the health cuts were to quote him "regrettable"

However it is clear Labour would rather make these cuts (and the further cuts which will have to be made before the end of the year) rather than pull out of the Croke Park Agreement.

Politicans in this country base all decisions firstly & most importantly on the political ramifications for their seats rather than the effect on the rest of the country.

While front line staff & lower paid members of the public service have taken significant cuts, middle & upper management levels are well overpaid & should have their salaries cut.

To stop paying increments is just one area they could make savings in. There is no way this should be considered part of basic salary under Croke Park Agreement. If the the government had any balls they would stop any incremenatal payments for next year in the budget..

This message has been edited - 01-sep-2012 @ 10:46

The Jedi

(214 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 10:54

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Public servants for the most part voted Labour in last election.

Labour do very well in urban areas which have lots of public servants.

Labour are funded heavily by the Unions.

Many senior Labour TDs are close to retirement.

Go figure what Labour will do re Croke Park.

In the mean time lets keep borrowing to fund the madness or cut essential services.

Please IMF, do your bloody job!

Fireplace

(599 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 11:29

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Originally posted by dubliner 2:
I think for certain elements of the public sector its time to go it alone again. If that makes me selfish so be it but it is common knowledge that there are thousands of pen pushers in the health sector getting paid enormous sums of money for doing nothing.The vast majority of teachers, guards, nurses and other front line workers actually have work to do, do their work and just get on with it. I don't believe it is fair to lump us in with health services clerical staff, planning officials and others who have no work to do. Yet we're the first to get a kicking when it is more than clear that there are many people employed who actually do damn all. I certainly don't want to take a pay cut just to keep people in jobs where there's actually no work to do.But I expect that's exactly what our unions will suggest.

At last you are starting to see the light.

All jobs are not equal in the PS, except in the lunacy of the Croke Park agreement.

FrancisNeedham

(21 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 11:42

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The Croke Park agreement is dead in the water. And thank god for that. Minister O Rielly has plenty of backing in his own party and countrywide for his comments yesterday. I think its time to call labours bluff. If they walk out then they ll get savaged in a general election and Fine Gael could end up with an over all majority or even dare I say it a coalition with Fianna Fail.
The Country has to come first and the unions need to realise this and fast or else they ll be made redundant by events anyway in the medium term.
Only problem with a general election is Sinn Fein would pick up the looney Left vote and even centre votes. A strong Sinn Fein would be some pill to swallow,having to listen to anymore of Pearse Doherty and Gerry Adams with thier harsh overbearing accents is enough to make me turn off the Tele.

Blanco

(7,909 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 12:42

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Aren't wee a great little country for a broke country all the same.

Just in case you didn't know where(or who) your household tax was going to.

There is also a story in today's paper about a FF councilor who emigrated to Australia 12 months ago but he is still getting paid from New Ross town council.

Revealed: the pay and perks of your local councillors
By Paul Melia and Cormac McQuinn
Saturday September 01 2012

THE country’s 883 city and county councillors benefited from a €28m payments’ windfall last year.

An Irish Independent investigation reveals that our part-time politicians were paid an average of €31,600 each in salary, allowances, expenses and fees for sitting on a range of public bodies. Many of these councillors earned this cash on top of their day jobs.

However, others have made a full-time living out of what is supposed to be a part-time role. A major trawl of financial records held by almost 200 public bodies revealed very high – but legitimate – pay and expense packages claimed by some councillors.

The highest-earning councillor in the country received seven payments totalling €83,000 from five different bodies – his county council and four outside bodies, to which he was nominated by virtue of being a county councillor.

The investigation also reveals:

- Councillors racked up huge foreign-travel bills, with more than 100 of them visiting 24 countries on five continents over the course of 2011.

- Another €2m was paid to councillors who attended conferences in Ireland.- At least 15 councillors also work as assistants and advisers to TDs and ministers, significantly boosting their incomes.

- One councillor received payments of more than €22,000 from a third-level institution and separate payments totalling €11,000 from a VEC.

- Councils have picked up the tab for master's degrees, website design and office equipment.

The highest earner in Ireland, Wicklow Fine Gael councillor George Jones, last night defended the €83,000 in payments he received in 2011, saying he was not "cashing in".

He added: "I'm getting no more extra than anyone else. It is just an effect of the various committees and bodies that I'm involved with."

Our investigation, conducted over four months, examined salaries, board members' fees, travel, subsistence, conference expenses and payments to attend meetings. Many of the payments are unvouched, meaning receipts did not have to be provided.

The payments were made to 883 city and county councillors, of which more than 150 also hold a dual mandate -- meaning they sit on a town or borough council as well.

This means they can claim expenses to represent two local authorities, which increases their totals.

Since 2002, councillors are paid an annual salary -- called a 'representational payment'. This is an amount of €16,724 for city and county councils and is subject to tax. Only one payment can be claimed.

There are also extra allowances for mayors, deputy mayors and chairs of council committees called 'special policy committees'. These payments are also subject to tax.

On top of these, there is also a tax-free allowance to attend council meetings and a tax-free conference budget of between €1,000 and €4,700 a year. A €600 mobile phone allowance is also given.

Some councillors privately admit that the system is open to abuse, with fears that some sign into conferences just to claim the payments and then leave. This allows them to claim mileage and subsistence payments without attending the conference.

But the payments were defended by the chairman of the Local Authority Members' Association, Monaghan councillor Hugh McElvaney (Fine Gael).

He said: "Hard-working councillors deserve these allowances. They work long days and weekends. They work a lot harder than many TDs and senators. I have no problem defending these expenses."

The high rate of payments is likely to be addressed in a major reform of local government to be revealed by Environment Minister Phil Hogan in the coming weeks.

See Monday's Irish Independent for all payments to Munster councillors and Tuesday's Irish Independent for officicals in Connacht and Ulster

- Paul Melia and Cormac McQuinn
independent.ie

Taebags

(148 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 15:12

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Maybe the sale of some state assets could keep the public sector scam going for another while lol.

Gilmores comments that the reduction of health services is unfortunate translates for me as - I dont care if people die due to poor health services, we're still going to maintain a huge wage bill.

Labour are as good as gone in the next general election imo.

There will almost certainly be industrial action if the government tackle this crazy croke park scam.
If the government had any balls then Kenny and co should take a leaf out of Ronald Raegens book and tell them if they dont want to work then we'll find people who will.

Rebel CNC

(4,232 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 16:26

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Originally posted by Taebags:
.Gilmores comments that the reduction of health services is unfortunate translates for me as - I dont care if people die due to poor health services, we're still going to maintain a huge wage bill..

Irish politician putting party before country - whatever next!!

dubliner 2

(10,823 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 16:37

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Originally posted by Taebags:

If the government had any balls then Kenny and co should take a leaf out of Ronald Raegens book and tell them if they dont want to work then we'll find people who will.

This is not America and that cannot be done. If you've any ideas that might be workable get back to us.

Rebel CNC

(4,232 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 16:52

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As long as the unions maintain collective mentality, it has to be bludgeon rather than rapier so 5% or 10% across the board cut will be the medicine!

dubliner 2

(10,823 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 16:53

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Originally posted by Rebel CNC:
As long as the unions maintain collective mentality, it has to be bludgeon rather than rapier so 5% or 10% across the board cut will be the medicine!

I agree. Which is why the unions of front line staff need to split away from the wasters.

I don't see it happening though.

tones67

(612 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 17:21

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While obviously the security is big plus for public service and the pension, its sickening too continually hear us being slated. The majority are not on big money and have taken big cuts in recent years, and hit with a pension levy on top of super annuation deduction which he had being paying previously. I was amazed to discover recently howmany of my colleague in public service now have medical cards due to the reduced income and indeed quite a few have FIS. I meet people on daily basis through work who have never worked and never intend to and appear to have more disposable income than most of my team mates. Plasma TVs, foreign holidays etc. Those who were working and lost jobs and want to work are completely different issue

Fireplace

(599 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 17:57

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2002 was the last time we had expenditure of around the income we have now.

What were you paid then and how many public servants were there.

Taebags

(148 Posts)

Posted: 01-Sep-2012 18:21

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Originally posted by dubliner 2:
This is not America and that cannot be done. If you've any ideas that might be workable get back to us.

Its above my paygrade to come up with ideas. Don't we have consultants on huge money doing that sort of thing.

Blanco

(7,909 Posts)

Posted: 02-Sep-2012 11:13

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Looks like the agreement is safe , according to the papers this morning Gilmore has told Kenny that Labour will def walk out of Government if a single cent is touched , that includes increments, and Enda in typical Bertie fashion has told the rest of his cabinet to distance themselves from O'Reilly on the issue and back the Croke Park agreement to the hilt.

ljk

(117 Posts)

Posted: 02-Sep-2012 14:00

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Originally posted by Blanco:
Looks like the agreement is safe , according to the papers this morning Gilmore has told Kenny that Labour will def walk out of Government if a single cent is touched , that includes increments, and Enda in typical Bertie fashion has told the rest of his cabinet to distance themselves from O'Reilly on the issue and back the Croke Park agreement to the hilt.

Blanco did you expect anything more from Gilmore? with him second in command in this country we won't see any improvement to the situation as this man is a total spoofer and a yes man to the vested interests.As i have said before and though i know its seems simple why can't they cut percentage wise from the top down?

tones67

(612 Posts)

Posted: 02-Sep-2012 16:13

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Originally posted by Fireplace:
2002 was the last time we had expenditure of around the income we have now. What were you paid then and how many public servants were there.

That was when I joined public service having just been made redundant from private sector! My private sector colleagues who were also made redundant laughed at the time as they set up tehir own businesses or went into other private sector posts. Theyre not laughing now, it was just good lucky timing on my behalf.

Blanco

(7,909 Posts)

Posted: 03-Sep-2012 10:48

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But sure they are entitled to it..

TDs got €34,300 pay-off to give up council seats
By Cormac McQuinn and Paul Melia
Monday September 03 2012

COUNCILLORS elected to the Dail last year were paid an average lump sum of €34,300 by cash-strapped councils -- simply because they were resigning their local authority seats.

The "retirement gratuities" were made despite the councillors taking up the lucrative positions in the Dail, where the starting salary for a TD is €92,000 a year.

Payments were also made to councillors elected to the Seanad, where new senators get more than €65,000 a year.

An Irish Independent investigation shows that councils -- which are reducing services to the public -- quietly paid more than €750,000 last year to 17 TDs and five senators who resigned their council seats.

Fine Gael TD Tony McLoughlin, who is based in Sligo, received more than €53,000 as a gratuity, while Labour's Sean Kenny, from Dublin North East, got more than €50,000.

High-profile TDs on the list include Fine Gael's Mary Mitchell-O'Connor, Sinn Fein's Dessie Ellis and prominent anti-household-charge campaigner Joan Collins of the United Left Alliance.

The gratuity sums are taxable and based on years of service in local authorities.

While most were unapologetic about taking the payments, others said they should be reviewed or even scrapped.

The list also includes four Sinn Fein TDs -- Mr Ellis, who received €35,832; Brian Stanley, (€3,791); Michael Colreavy (€38,708); and Sean Crowe (€8,700).

A Sinn Fein spokeswoman said the TDs did not give the payment to the party, but that this did not conflict with its policy that no member should earn more than the average industrial wage.

"As a once-off payment, the party does not believe that this conflicts with Sinn Fein wage policy," she said.

The payments were introduced by the Fianna Fail/PD government in 2002 as compensation for the lack of pension for councillors, who get part-time salaries.

Mr McLoughlin, who was a member of Sligo County Council from 1974, said his €53,259.39 payment was "in accordance with the regulations".

He was asked if he considered the retirement gratuity payment appropriate, given that he wasn't retiring, but didn't address the question.

A further six Fine Gael politicians received the payments, with sums ranging from the €22,380 paid to Ms Mitchell-O'Connor to €49,240 paid to senator Terry Brennan.

The largest retirement gratuity given to a new Labour TD was the €50,270 paid to Mr Kenny.

His party colleague, Roscommon-based senator John Kelly, said he didn't know if the gratuity was an appropriate payment but said: "Would you say no to it if it was available to yourself when you leave your job?"

One former councillor who was paid a €38,700 gratuity -- Labour TD Eamonn Maloney -- said he twice refused the payment but South Dublin County Council insisted he take it.

He said he would be "very surprised" if Environment Minister Phil Hogan didn't scrap the payments in his forthcoming review of local government.

- Cormac McQuinn and Paul Melia
independent.ie

Boston Bruin

(131 Posts)

Posted: 03-Sep-2012 11:25

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It’s now time that the Troika stepped in and turned the screw on these clowns to bring an end to this farcical situation in the Health Service. Unions & vested interests would prefer that Hospitals close their doors so that they can remain among the highest paid employees in the world among their peers and so thousands of pen pushers in the HSE bureaucratic monster can remain doing nothing and getting handsomely rewarded for it. All under the guise of an agreement that even by its own terms is now null & void. As another poster said, it’s some country for a broke country!!.

Taebags

(148 Posts)

Posted: 03-Sep-2012 11:25

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I just read the article below in the examiner. Surely if the hospitals run out of money the present government will be forced into a general election.

Also was'nt there a clause put into the croke park agreement taht if unforeseen circumstances arise, that the government can break the agreement if they want.
I would have thought that the fact we are borrowing money to fund daily public sector running costs would be seen as a reason to break the agreement but obviously not. But surely having no more money left to pay for basic health services would be.

Hospitals 'may run out of money by October'
Monday, September 03, 2012 - 08:20 AM

A consultant at the Mater Hospital in Dublin has suggested that hospitals in the city and other parts of the country could run out of money by October.

It comes as efforts are being made to resolve a split between the Government parties over proposed cuts to the health budget, with suggestions by some TDs that the rift could spark an early election.

The Minister for Public Expenditure Brendan Howlin met with the Health Minister James Reilly over the weekend in an effort to clear up the row, which centres on €130m worth of cuts announced earlier this week.

Consultant Ophthalmologist at the Mater Hospital in Dublin, Micheal O'Keeffe, has said it is not clear where these cuts can be made.

He also said there are strong rumours that hospitals in the capital may be out of cash before the year is out.

Mr O'Keeffe said: "We don't know where these cutbacks are going to happen, where they are going to come, what the deficit is and what it means.

"There is a rumour, and I think it is more than a rumour, that a lot of hospitals in Dublin and elsewhere will run out of money by October and there is even a rumour that at that stage they will not even be able to pay the wages of the staff.

"This has a lot to run yet and if that is true, the crisis will be many times what it is now."

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