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Topic: The fall and rise of Waterford - mid 1980s style
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 00:04	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	National Hurling League Division 2 1984/1985 Dublin 3-15 Waterford 3-7 Roscommon 0-9 Waterford 1-4 Waterford 2-16 Kildare 0-9 Waterford 1-15 Westmeath 1-13 Antrim 5-9 Waterford 2-12 Kerry 3-6 Waterford 2-8 Clare 1-15 Waterford 1-8 Summary: relegation Division 3 1985/1986 Waterford 2-12 Kildare 3-5 Waterford 1-12 Derry 0-5 Waterford 6-24 Louth 2-4 Waterford 7-11 Armagh 0-3 Waterford 4-9 Carlow 2-5 Mayo 3-7 Waterford 2-6 Waterford 3-12 Wicklow 1-6 Summary: Despite the capitulation to Mayo in Dungarvan [Decies 2-6 to 0-0 down at half time] promotion back to Division 2 ensued.
Owenmoresider* (113 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 00:11	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Owenmoresider* (113 Posts)	Where did you get those from? Hard to credit Waterford being in Division 3. And Mayo were probably worse than they are now too.
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 00:13	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Originally posted by Owenmoresider*: Where did you get those from? Hard to credit Waterford being in Division 3. And Mayo were probably worse than they are now too. Irish Times digital archive. Got a present of a subscription for the week. It`s fascinating stuff.
Micko Mc (1,915 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 00:18	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Micko Mc (1,915 Posts)	I thought our 93 loss to Kerry was a dark day. Father never stop talking about the 82 Munster Final. Another particulary dark day. My first memory is of 89 Munster Final. Not a bad showing for a team considering the few years before.
ormondeboy3 (564 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 10:20	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
ormondeboy3 (564 Posts)	Originally posted by Micko Mc: I thought our 93 loss to Kerry was a dark day. Father never stop talking about the 82 Munster Final. Another particulary dark day. My first memory is of 89 Munster Final. Not a bad showing for a team considering the few years before. "not a bad showing" of what exactly?
HangBlaa (2,471 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 10:30	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
HangBlaa (2,471 Posts)	Originally posted by nlgbbbblth: National Hurling League Division 2 1984/1985 Dublin 3-15 Waterford 3-7 Roscommon 0-9 Waterford 1-4 Waterford 2-16 Kildare 0-9 Waterford 1-15 Westmeath 1-13 Antrim 5-9 Waterford 2-12 Kerry 3-6 Waterford 2-8 Clare 1-15 Waterford 1-8 Summary: relegation Division 3 1985/1986 Waterford 2-12 Kildare 3-5 Waterford 1-12 Derry 0-5 Waterford 6-24 Louth 2-4 Waterford 7-11 Armagh 0-3 Waterford 4-9 Carlow 2-5 Mayo 3-7 Waterford 2-6 Waterford 3-12 Wicklow 1-6 Summary: Despite the capitulation to Mayo in Dungarvan [Decies 2-6 to 0-0 down at half time] promotion back to Division 2 ensued. Scary stuff..
JoNinety (Power User)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 10:37	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
JoNinety (Power User)	Originally posted by HangBlaa: Scary stuff.. Welcome to 2012!
Deise Vu (1,658 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 12:03	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Deise Vu (1,658 Posts)	Originally posted by JoNinety: Welcome to 2012! There were a number of factors at work during the Dark Ages. We had just been hammered out the door in the `82 and `83 Munster finals to a Cork team who suffered a similar fate at the hands of the Cats in each AIF. Lots of players retired at the same time which is something we could not afford to carry such as Jim Greene, Pat McGrath, John Galvin, Mossy Walsh, Stephen Breen and morale was totally shot. To cap it all the chairman of the County Board, Eamonn Murphy brought in (would imposed be too strong a word? ) an outside coach in Joe McGrath who proved to be unpopular with the players (despite an earlier successful period with the county ) . We then ended up with defections, sometimes literally on the day of matches and a shambles of a set up. Apparently the Roscommon trip was great crack the night before etc etc. Anyway instead of concentrating on hurling we had a civil war between the County Chairman and various rumps which eventually ended up with the chairman going but only after everyone had forgotten what was the point of the whole exc ercise - promoting the GAA and making people proud of their county. Does that sound familiar Sean Óg???? Donal Óg??
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 12:08	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	One thing I notice between then and now is the lesser gap between the top and average counties in the 80s. In 1984, 18 counties entered the Centenary Cup. The only hammering I remember is, curiously enough, Waterford (! ) beating Mayo by 9-25 to 2-6 approx. You know what happened two years later. Roscommon beat Wexford and Wicklow didn`t rollover and die against Kilkenny. Back then, Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford and Laois were much of a muchness - particularly when it came to league hurling. Dublin and Westmeath were close behind. Kerry, Roscommon, Mayo, Antrim, Down, Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow - all capable of springing the odd shock. Now only 12 play for the All Ireland with heavy beatings routinely dished out to at least three of these counties.
Visalia (681 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 12:24	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Visalia (681 Posts)	I know Im not exactly the greatest of fans of Waterford but f**k that is alarming. Fair play to them for coming back up. How did it happen? Concentration on the underage I presume?
sid wallace (Power User)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 12:45	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
sid wallace (Power User)	Originally posted by nlgbbbblth: One thing I notice between then and now is the lesser gap between the top and average counties in the 80s. In 1984, 18 counties entered the Centenary Cup. The only hammering I remember is, curiously enough, Waterford (! ) beating Mayo by 9-25 to 2-6 approx. You know what happened two years later. Roscommon beat Wexford and Wicklow didn`t rollover and die against Kilkenny. Back then, Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford and Laois were much of a muchness - particularly when it came to league hurling. Dublin and Westmeath were close behind. Kerry, Roscommon, Mayo, Antrim, Down, Kildare, Wicklow, Carlow - all capable of springing the odd shock. Now only 12 play for the All Ireland with heavy beatings routinely dished out to at least three of these counties. thanks for that info nlgbbbblth. would you be able to post up a sample team from the time in D2 or D3. I`d have a fair idea of some of the names that would show up but I wouldn`t mind seeing a full team. I think by the way that you are being a little select ive on the gap between first and second tier counties. In the mid to end 1980s Waterford were a very poor outfit indeed. We contested three Munster titles - in each case we had to win one game only to get to the final. We scraped past an aged Limerick team in 1982. In 1983 We beat a Tipp team in Cork that was on the way up - no doubt but bore little resemblance to the team that scared Cork the following year in Thurles (it might have been John Grogan`s last outing in a Tipp shirt and I think it was the last time Peter Brennan lined out for the premier at full back ) . We beat what is widely regarded as the worst Cork team ever in 1989 after a replay and a bout of concussion to to Ger Cunningham. In each performance against relatively poor opposition Waterford played out of their skins and each of these victories were easily Waterford`s best performances of the decade. However in each final that we qualified for we got beaten out the gate. To an embarassing extent really. The point is that while Mayo, Roscommon and Westmeath were sometimes within touching distance of Waterford and others - Waterford were miles behind the big teams in this era and right up to 1996 when we put in a respectable performance against Tipp in Walsh Park. You should remember that Kilkenny dished out some fiercesome beatings in this period too. In 1982 they beat Westmeath in the Leinster Championship by 7-31 to 0-9. My uncle was at the game and told me that Kilkenny were booed off the field for not easing up on Westmeath. That was a reasonable Westmeath team too with the Kilcoynes backboning it. The other point that`s easily forgotten in all of this is that Mayo, Roscommon and Westmeath in particular had small hurling populations. So - relative to Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary- did Waterford. Emigration was rife at the time. The marquee counties had the means to keep players in Ireland. Cork had the jobs in the bank. After losing a lot of players in the early eighties Tipp under Babs set up the supports to keep players. I`d be of the view that because of it`s relatively prosperous economy of the time Kilkenny wasn`t particularly badly hit by emigration. Westmeath was however. The county hurling team was decimated. In effect the entire county team got on a plane to New York and never came back. When I was in New York in the mid 80s Westmeath were one of the strongest teams in a thriving championship. A generation of Westmeath hurlers was lost to the county overnight. I`d expect a similar story in the cases of Roscommon and Mayo where they couldn`t take the loss of more than one or two players. It should be borne in mind that at this time Waterford was an economic wasteland. The old industries were falling away - the Jute factory, the Paper Mills, Clover meats, the Docks, had all closed for business and the Glass Factory had begun to lay off people. The unemployment rate in Waterford was the highest in the country running between 13 and 15%. Emigration - particularly for youngsters - was the only way to make a living. Hurling obviously suffered and the Jolly Tinker in new York was especially pro active in fixing up young Waterford hurlers with work. So if you were any way talented with a stick and a ball there was a way out for you. Add to that the calamitous decision (oft discussed here ) of some of the Western clubs to abandon hurling for football and the seeds of Waterford`d decline became more obvious. Deise Vu - a small correction. Murphy was a malign influence, of that there is no doubt. (though I`d say you could trace the green shoots of revival to the night that the cliques in the county board finally faced up to him and ran him, showing a unity of purpose that was previously absent ) . However I think Joe Mcgrath was gone by 1982. My memory is that he was pushed out between the league and the championship in 1982. As far as I recall Greener and Phil Fanning were running the team in 85. I think Phil was certainly a select or at the time.
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 13:42	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Some very good points there Sid. I remember Kilkenny`s hammering of Westmeath in 1982. Wexford also put up 7-18 against them - I think it was the following year. The league always seemed more competitive than the championship. Waterford were certainly well behind the other four Munster counties during the period in question. I had forgotten that reaching each final necessitated, in the words of Todd Rundgren, just one victory. I`ll post up a couple of teams later on.
Odysseus (218 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 13:51	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Odysseus (218 Posts)	Waterford also rose and fell last year remember? Both times against Limerick!!!
Deise Vu (1,658 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 14:27	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Deise Vu (1,658 Posts)	Great post there Sid. The things us oul stagers have gone through wiith the county. I can recall a post last Sept or so about some poor young fella who was crying about how his heart was broken by the the 5 losing AI semi`s! I wanted to tell him this is the Golden Age but I was afraid I mightr tip him over the edge. One trump card in the misery stakes that I personally hold is that for the duration of the 80`s I was working in, wait for it, the one and only Marble City. Oh, God, every Monday morning was the Walk of Shame into that office.I doubt anyone out there can beat that or even come close. I still get flashbacks, but the Doc says I am making progress. One day at a time. Also my apologies about Joe McGrath / Eamonn Murphy. I think the second coming of Joe was around our second Dark Ages, the early Nineties? Maybe someone out there not as senile as me will have better recall.
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 15:16	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
nlgbbbblth (3,600 Posts)	Waterford team v Dublin, 7 October 1984 J Power, P O`Neill, D Byrne, M Brackett, P Tobin, P Ryan, D Horan, C Curley, N Crowley, P Curran, P Hennerbry, S Ahern, P Bennett, J Galvin, S Breen Subs used J Geary, K Delahunty, B Hennessy Waterford team v Clare, 24 February 1985 J Power, F O`Doherty, J Galvin, M Beecher, C Curley, D Byrne, D Foran, M Ronayne, P Bennett, K Delahunty, M Walsh, P Curran, E Rockett, J Greene, S Greene Subs used P Ryan, B Power, P Curley "As Clare drove off victorious, a stunned crowd of Waterford supporters heard in silence news of their relegation" Full team lists not published for Division 3 match reports.
GCheasty (768 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 15:21	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
GCheasty (768 Posts)	Originally posted by Deise Vu: I can recall a post last Sept or so about some poor young fella who was crying about how his heart was broken by the the 5 losing AI semi`s! I wanted to tell him this is the Golden Age but I was afraid I mightr tip him over the edge. That was me. That post was one of the most cathartic things I`ve ever done. THIS year, I`m not going to get as emotionally invested in Waterford hurling... I`m telling you. I remember the `89 final, just about. I was in Nowlan Park for the `92 U-21 replay and I was in the Sportsfield for the Kerry game in `93. Would I be right in saying we lost to Meath in the league around the early to mid 90`s?
gain feeds (1,025 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 15:26	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
gain feeds (1,025 Posts)	Days that are best forgotten. The old cliche springs to mind, the first item on every county board meeting was the split. I find it better to try and take some humour from those times. There was the bridge meeting that had to be abandoned in Lawlors when the then County Board chairman came flying through the partition courtesy of a haymaker from a future TD. Jim Joe Landers presided over our relegation to Division 3. That same future TD mused on his appointment "We mightnt be any use but at least they we`ll be turned out immaculately" Tallow were county champions in 84 and 85 but as Sid pointed out many of their better players were working in New York during the winter courtesy of Mickey Prendergast. They had a very useful outfit and ran that years AI club champions Kilruane McDonaghs to a point in the Munster club. I mentioned here before Paudie Prendegast was working in Mayo at the that time and playing on the quiet with their inter county team. He had to cry off though for the visit to Dungarvan. I remember a few of the lads on the teams against Roscommon and Mayo but it wouldnt be fair to mention them here. They`re still trying to live it down.
HangBlaa (2,471 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 15:31	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
HangBlaa (2,471 Posts)	Originally posted by nlgbbbblth: Waterford team v Dublin, 7 October 1984 J Power, P O`Neill, D Byrne, M Brackett, P Tobin, P Ryan, D Horan, C Curley, N Crowley, P Curran, P Hennerbry, S Ahern, P Bennett, J Galvin, S Breen Subs used J Geary, K Delahunty, B Hennessy Waterford team v Clare, 24 February 1985 J Power, F O`Doherty, J Galvin, M Beecher, C Curley, D Byrne, D Foran, M Ronayne, P Bennett, K Delahunty, M Walsh, P Curran, E Rockett, J Greene, S Greene Subs used P Ryan, B Power, P Curley "As Clare drove off victorious, a stunned crowd of Waterford supporters heard in silence news of their relegation" Full team lists not published for Division 3 match reports. Some hurlers of note in that panel in fariness.. ..thanks nlgbbbblth, much appreciated information
Deise Vu (1,658 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 15:31	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Deise Vu (1,658 Posts)	Originally posted by reg reagan: That was me. That post was one of the most cathartic things I`ve ever done. THIS year, I`m not going to get as emotionally invested in Waterford hurling... I`m telling you. I remember the `89 final, just about. I was in Nowlan Park for the `92 U-21 replay and I was in the Sportsfield for the Kerry game in `93. Would I be right in saying we lost to Meath in the league around the early to mid 90`s? Jayz Reg, you have been busy with the posts since. Trust me getting emotionally involved is inevitable though. On the postive side, if I can survive the 80`s and early nineties and still love the game you surely can. Plus the rusty team which started another rollercoaster last Sunday is 100% different from the team that beat Tipp in Cork in 1998, apart from Dan. That to me is the most encouraging thing of the lot this year and going forward.
Deise go deo (2,494 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 16:07	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Deise go deo (2,494 Posts)	Great topic lads. Some very interesting posts. It is hard to believe how far Waterford had fallen by the early/mid 80s. To think that we had been winning All-Irelands 2 decades before. Losing to Mayo and Roscommon was bad,but at least that was the league. Losing to Kerry in 93 at Walsh park in knockout championship hurling is surely the lowest ebb our county has ever reached. especially after winning the U-21 All-Ireland the year before. The 1989 Munster Final is my own first memory of a Waterford match so i only know of the mid 80s defeats from eyewitness accounts! Not pretty from what I`ve heard down the years. Although there is always the chance that things could slip again, i think the current set-up in the county will ensure we dont slip back to the levels of the mid 80s. The current strength at schools and Tony Forristal level should ensure that there will be exceptional hurlers available to Waterford teams for the future. But the great work going on at underage levels needs to be built upon and improved in any area where possible to ensure there is no return to the Dark Ages of the 1980s.
lovely hurler (1,625 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 16:18	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
lovely hurler (1,625 Posts)	I have to agree with above. Waterford are turning around alot of decent hurlers these days and seem to have replacements fighting to come in. I`m not sure if Justin is the man to bring ye that extra step, but i think Waterford are very much in the mix for the next 10 years. I believe they are expecting a serious Minor team this year? That true?
sid wallace (Power User)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 18:26	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
sid wallace (Power User)	I suppose it all depends on what one considers to be Waterford`s level. I don`t have the stats in front of me but I think it was 1926 (ie 42 years after the foundation of the GAA ) that Waterford beat a county in Munster other than Kerry (in that case Clare ) . To qualify for their first Munster Final in 1931 Waterford again beat Kerry. Beating Cork in 1938 was Waterford`s first win over a big 3 county in Munster and that year was our first Munster title (54 years after the foundation of the GAA ) . The following decade saw a pattern of competitive defeats interspersed with bad beatings before we landed the All Ireland for the first time in 1948 (which we almost contirved to lose because of a row in the camp ) . Broadly the decade 1957 to 1966 was a golden era of fantastic hurlers coached by the majesty of John Keane. Their misfortune was running into an equally good Tipp team. From 1966 to 1996 the senior team slipped back alarmingly. You might point to Kerry as a low point, but that was a combination of a decent Kerry team and an eejit of a Waterford manager (Georgie Leahy ) who let the team out onto the pitch while Kerry were having a puck around to take publicity shots in their new Avonmore suits. In short for the first century and a bit of the GAAs existence Waterford were for the most part a second tier county, quite often a third tier county and very rarely a first tier county. Looked at over the course of the first century of the GAA Waterford`s position in Division 3 in 1985 while embarassing and somewhat unfortunate wasn`t really that far out of character. In reality by 1993 some class of a revival was likely because of the exceptional crop of under age players from the previous year. It just needed a bit of order and a decent manager (Gerald McCarthy ) . In addition to the splits and the petty jealousies and rivalries in the county, there was a ferocious drinking culture in the county team. When you hear some of the stories from county players of the time, you wouldn`t know whether to laugh or get angry. I remember Tipp coming to Walsh park for a league game after Babs took over. The Waterford team were shuffling around smoking fags in their denim jackets and jeans waiting to go into the dressing room when the Tipp coach pulled up. The Tipp team descended immaculately dressed in Tipp blazers, white shirts and ties, brushed passed the Waterford lads (somewhat contemptuously ) and into the dressing rooms. It was as good as a 10 point start to Tipp. Gerald McCarthy taking the job was a huge leg up to the county team. Up to that point we had either home grown managers or what Eamon Dunphy would call "rinky dink" outsiders - Georgie Leahy, Joe McGrath etc. McCarthy was an All Ireland winner and had moral authority which he was not afraid to wield. Dan Shanahan nearly got caught in the crossfire. The combination if a decent manager, a good but not spectacularly good under age production line and a local economy robust enough to provide work for youngsters was enough to stop and reverse the rot. The rivalry and consequent increase in standards between Mount Sion and Ballygunner helped as well. It also helped that in 98 Tipp fielded a very weak team. As regards the teams above my recollection is that in a desperate last throw of the dice Waterford called Greener and Galvin out of retirement for the Clare game to avoid relegation,but they were so long in the tooth they could hardly move. Thanks for that nlgbbbblth. As regards the county board meeting where the chairman arrived through the wall, it was the case I think that he had made a very hurtful remark of a personal nature to the future TD and all concerned felt that the haymaker was the least the chairman deserved. Deise Vu I worked for a while in the marble city myself in the early 80s so I know well the walk of shame.
An Fear Rua (Editor)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 20:35	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
An Fear Rua (Editor)	I agree with sid that you cannot underestimate the role of economics in all this. It`s no accident that the `Big Three` of hurling historically are - essentially - the rich dairying counties of the Golden Vale. In my view, the main reason Clare broke their 70 plus year gap in 1995... was the Shannon Industrial Estate...
lovely hurler (1,625 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 20:47	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
lovely hurler (1,625 Posts)	Top class post Sid. We really have it good in Cork, and its only things like the recent stupidness that makes you realise that, and posts like yours. I`m not been smart now, but could you put the recent Waterford teams on a par with Munster rugby. Thriving in a new era of hurling (Rugby ) , but just not quite there yet (Obviously its slightly different for Munster now having won )
LowerThe Blades Lads (840 Posts)	Posted: 12-Feb-2008 21:25	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
LowerThe Blades Lads (840 Posts)	There`s material here to condense and nail to the dressing-room wall come summer! Reading through the litany of failure and humiliation (and I, like some of the older Deise contributors here, remember it all to well ) I wonder how we endured the pain. Against that background some of our humble, by the standards of some of our neighbours, achievements of recent years were for me like dying and going to heaven. God only knows the state I`ll be in if we manage to see Croke Park in September. Welcome back sid, we missed you!

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