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Topic: Higgs Boson & the confession box
Pas de Deux (1,285 Posts)	Posted: 16-Oct-2009 09:51	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Pas de Deux (1,285 Posts)	As an aside to some of the arguments on science/religion etc. in the recent confessionbox thread, an interesting theory about damage to the Collider at CERN New Scientist Oct 13 2009 Could the Large Hadron Collider be sabotaging itself from the future? That`s the suggestion of a couple of reasonably distinguished theoretical physicists, which has received a fresh airing in the New York Times today. Actually, it`s the Higgs boson that is doing the sabotage. Apparently, among the many singular properties of the Higgs that the LHC is meant to discover could be the ability to turn back time to stop its cover being blown. Or as the New York Times puts it: "the hypothesized Higgs boson... might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one, like a time traveler who goes back in time to kill his grandfather."
EastStand (6,332 Posts)	Posted: 16-Oct-2009 09:52	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
EastStand (6,332 Posts)	What are they basing this on? Sounds complete and utter fantasy to me.
Pas de Deux (1,285 Posts)	Posted: 16-Oct-2009 10:05	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Pas de Deux (1,285 Posts)	Apologies for the length of the article but it is probably interesting to anyne with an interest in it. Also Nielsen appears to be a reputable scientist New York Times Oct 14 2009 "It must be our prediction that all Higgs producing machines shall have bad luck," Nielsen said in an e-mail message. In an unpublished essay, Nielson said of the theory, "Well, one could even almost say that we have a model for God." It is their guess, he went on, "that He rather hates Higgs particles, and attempts to avoid them." This malign influence from the future, they argue, could explain why the United States Superconducting Supercollider, also designed to find the Higgs, was canceled in 1993 after billions of dollars had already been spent, an event so unlikely that Nielsen calls it an "anti-miracle." You might think that the appearance of this theory is further proof that people have had ample time__perhaps too much time__to think about what will come out of the collider, which has been 15 years and $9 billion in the making. The collider was built by CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, to accelerate protons to energies of 7 trillion electron volts around an 18-mile underground racetrack and then crash them together into primordial fireballs. Nielsen and Ninomiya started laying out their case for doom in the spring of 2008. It was later that fall, of course, after the CERN collider was turned on, that a connection between two magnets vaporized, which shut down the collider for more than a year. Nielsen called the incident a "funny thing that could make us to believe in the theory of ours." He agreed that skepticism would be in order. After all, most big science projects, including the Hubble Space Telescope, have gone through a period of seeming jinxed. At CERN, the beat goes on: Last weekend the French police arrested a particle physicist who works on one of the collider experiments, on suspicion of conspiracy with a North African wing of al-Qaeda. Nielsen and Ninomiya have proposed a kind of test: that CERN engage in a game of chance, a "card-drawing" exercise using perhaps a random-number generator, in order to discern bad luck from the future. If the outcome was sufficiently unlikely, say drawing the one spade in a deck with 100 million hearts, the machine would either not run at all, or only at low energies unlikely to find the Higgs. Sure, it`s crazy, and CERN should not and is not about to mortgage its investment to a coin toss. The theory was greeted on some blogs with comparisons to Harry Potter. But craziness has a fine history in a physics that talks routinely about cats being dead and alive at the same time and about anti-gravity puffing out the universe. As Niels Bohr, Nielsen`s late countryman and one of the founders of quantum theory, once told a colleague: "We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct." Nielsen is well-qualified in this tradition. He is known in physics as one of the founders of string theory and a deep and original thinker, "one of those extremely smart people that is willing to chase crazy ideas pretty far," in the words of Sean Carroll, a Caltech physicist and author of a coming book about time, "From Eternity to Here." Another of Nielsen`s projects is an effort to show how the universe as we know it, with all its apparent regularity, could arise from pure randomness, a subject he calls "random dynamics." Nielsen admits that he and Ninomiya`s new theory smacks of time travel, a longtime interest, which has become a respectable research subject in recent years. While it is a paradox to go back in time and kill your grandfather, physicists agree there is no paradox if you go back in time and save him from being hit by a bus. In the case of the Higgs and the collider, it is as if something is going back in time to keep the universe from being hit by a bus. Although just why the Higgs would be a catastrophe is not clear. If we knew, presumably, we wouldn`t be trying to make one. We always assume that the past influences the future. But that is not necessarily true in the physics of Newton or Einstein. According to physicists, all you really need to know, mathematically, to describe what happens to an apple or the 100 billion galaxies of the universe over all time are the laws that describe how things change and a statement of where things start. The latter are the so-called boundary conditions__the apple five feet over your head, or the Big Bang. The equations work just as well, Nielsen and others point out, if the boundary conditions specify a condition in the future (the apple on your head ) instead of in the past, as long as the fundamental laws of physics are reversible, which most physicists believe they are. "For those of us who believe in physics," Einstein once wrote to a friend, "this separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion." In Kurt Vonnegut`s novel "Sirens of Titan," all of human history turns out to be reduced to delivering a piece of metal roughly the size and shape of a beer-can opener to an alien marooned on Saturn`s moon so he can repair his spaceship and go home. Whether the collider has such a noble or humble fate__or any fate at all__remains to be seen. As a Red Sox fan my entire adult life, I feel I know something about jinxes.
spot_the_dog (189 Posts)	Posted: 16-Oct-2009 10:48	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
spot_the_dog (189 Posts)	One of the lesser known predictions of Quantum Mechanics is that there is a parallel universe where Kilkenny are All Ireland Football champions and Kerry won the Hurling. If Tommy Walsh gets an All Star in the football tomorrow distinguished theoretical physicists are predicting that there will be a catastrophic convergence of both universes leading to the instantaneous annihilation of existence. Strange but true.
dolfos (1,192 Posts)	Posted: 16-Oct-2009 12:07	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
dolfos (1,192 Posts)	I have to admit Pas de Deux, my mind is being expanded on AFR. I decided to look up the Faith and Reason Encyclical by JP 2 yesterday that you mentioned on another tread, if I get a chance this afternoon Im gonna have a proper look at this one too.
Pas de Deux (1,285 Posts)	Posted: 16-Oct-2009 12:11	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Pas de Deux (1,285 Posts)	Originally posted by dolfos: I have to admit Pas de Deux, my mind is being expanded on AFR. I decided to look up the Faith and Reason Encyclical by JP 2 yesterday that you mentioned on another tread, if I get a chance this afternoon Im gonna have a proper look at this one too. Just don`t ask me to explain it to you !!
Habanerocat (2,252 Posts)	Posted: 11-Jun-2012 13:03	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Habanerocat (2,252 Posts)	Scientists at the Centre for Nuclear Research have said that an experiment which challenged Einstein's theory on the speed of light had been flawed and that sub-atomic particles - like everything else - are indeed bound by the universe's speed limit. Researchers working at CERN caused a storm last year when they published experimental results showing that neutrinos could out-pace light by some six kilometres per second. The findings threatened to upend modern physics and smash a hole in Albert Einstein's 1905 theory of special relativity, which described the velocity of light as the maximum speed in the cosmos. But CERN has now said that the earlier results were wrong and faulty kit was to blame. "Although this result isn't as exciting as some would have liked, it is what we all expected deep down," said the centre's research director Sergio Bertolucci. "The story captured the public imagination, and has given people the opportunity to see the scientific method in action. "An unexpected result was put up for scrutiny, thoroughly investigated and resolved in part thanks to collaboration between normally competing experiments. That's how science moves forward." The neutrinos were timed on the journey from CERN's giant underground lab near Geneva to the Gran Sasso Laboratory in Italy, after travelling 732km through the Earth's crust. To do the trip, the neutrinos should have taken 0.0024 seconds. Instead, the particles were recorded as hitting the detectors in Italy 0.00000006 seconds sooner than expected, the preliminary experiment had shown. Researchers updated the science community today at the International Conference on Neutrino Physics and Astrophysics, being held in Japan's ancient capital of Kyoto. "The previous data taken up to 2011 with the neutrino beam from CERN to Gran Sasso were revised taking into account understood instrumental effects," the team said. "A coherent picture has emerged with both previous and new data pointing to a neutrino velocity consistent with the speed of light." The initial findings had been greeted with a combination of excitement and scepticism, even from those involved in the experiment, who urged other physicists to carry out their own checks to corroborate or refute what had been seen. "If this result at CERN is proved to be right, and particles are found to travel faster than the speed of light, then I am prepared to eat my shorts, live on TV," Jim Al-Khalili, a professor of theoretical physics at Britain's University of Surrey, declared at the time.
Habanerocat (2,252 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 11:02	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Habanerocat (2,252 Posts)	It's ok they found it! Scientists at the CERN research centre have discovered a new subatomic particle that could be the elusive Higgs boson. The particle gives matter mass and is believed to be crucial in the formation of the universe. The announcement follows experiments aimed at identifying the missing link in our understanding of the universe. The team working at the Large Hadron Collider outside Geneva has been looking for evidence of the subatomic particle. Joe Incandela, spokesman for one of the two teams hunting for the Higgs particle told an audience at CERN: "This is a preliminary result, but we think it's very strong and very solid." In December 2011, CERN announced that it had inconclusive hints of the Higgs boson. The Higgs particle is the last undiscovered piece of the Standard Model that describes the fundamental make-up of the universe. The model is for physicists what the theory of evolution is for biologists. Watch a news conference live now It is a hugely successful theory but has several gaps, the biggest of which is why some particles have mass and others do not. Mooted by British physicist Peter Higgs in 1964, the boson is believed to exist in a treacly, invisible, ubiquitous field created by the Big Bang 13.7bn years ago. When some particles encounter the Higgs, they slow down and acquire mass, according to theory. Others, such as particles of light, encounter no obstacle.
Taebags (148 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 12:23	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Taebags (148 Posts)	Scientists have included the higgs particle in standard physics models since the 60's. It is only now that they have proved its existance. Scientists will now try and to break it down further to understand it more. It is quiet possible(if not likely) that further nuclear technologies could be developed which could be a very dangerous thing for humanity. Its explained simply enough here http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/03/12547980-the-higgs-boson-made-simple?lite Theres a decent article here on time travel http://mkaku.org/home/?page_id=252 imo Nasa have already developed ways of sending binary messages through time. Afterall travelling forward in time has already been proven mathemathically\theoretically possible many years ago. The energy needed to do this was the main stumbling block. But maybe this latest breakthrough will provide the gateway to producing more advanced energy solutions. Afaik travelling back in time has not been proven mathemathically possible using standard physics models. Although Nielsons theory seems a little crazy at first, it should be considered a possibility at least.
jimmymahon (1,699 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 13:21	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
jimmymahon (1,699 Posts)	Could this mean the Mayo lads will return to the Neutron diet this year?
bp (2,408 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 13:28	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
bp (2,408 Posts)	Originally posted by jimmymahon: Could this mean the Mayo lads will return to the Neutron diet this year? .....hardly a positive step
jaykeane (102 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 14:54	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
jaykeane (102 Posts)	Really interesting stuff. From what I can gather this makes the theory of time travel plausible , which begs the question if time travel has been invented in the future have time travelers already visited us in the present time ……………..
jimmymahon (1,699 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 15:39	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
jimmymahon (1,699 Posts)	Originally posted by jaykeane: Really interesting stuff. From what I can gather, this makes the theory of time travel plausible, which begs the question if time travel will be invented in the future, are time travelers visiting us at the present time? …………….. Fixed that for you there.
bp (2,408 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 15:43	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
bp (2,408 Posts)	Much more impressive if you had posted that at a quarter to three.
jaykeane (102 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 16:12	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
jaykeane (102 Posts)	Originally posted by jimmymahon: Fixed that for you there. Are you a bit slow jimmy ,did you not grasp the subtext? . If you want to go around fixing stuff come over near my house ,there are a few pot holes that need fixing......... This message has been edited - 04-jul-2012 @ 16:12
Taebags (148 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 16:24	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Taebags (148 Posts)	According to Einsteins theory where space can be bended to manipulate time, then time travel is theoretically possible. Fast forward to 28:33 in the link below to get an idea http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFCKNsuh3yo This is only a university backed project. Its highly probable that Nasa could have a working version of Ronald Malletts experiment imo.
Habanerocat (2,252 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 16:29	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Habanerocat (2,252 Posts)	Originally posted by bp: Much more impressive if you had posted that at a quarter to three. If you read the article you'd have found out that its only plausible to go forward in time, not back.
bp (2,408 Posts)	Posted: 04-Jul-2012 16:46	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
bp (2,408 Posts)	Originally posted by Habanerocat: If you read the article you'd have found out that its only plausible to go forward in time, not back. ...ALL the more reason ! But.... couldn't he have gone foward in time at twenty to three to see what jaykeane was posting at 14.54, return to "normal" time and post the correction at a quarter to three.

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