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Topic: ireland not fit to govern itself? better off with the brits???
The referee (6,331 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 19:35	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
The referee (6,331 Posts)	Having watched what unfolded with the banks especially the revelations in the Last Week r so has really put me thinking. I beginning to thing that there is not the necessary calibre of people in politics in this country with the right combination of morals, principles, honesty and talent to govern this country. The country is also too small and the elite in the judiciary, church, civil service, unions, business especially property are operating in a cosy click with the politicans especially FF and are more concerned with feathering their own nest than any over riding sense of responsibility towards the nation. Beef, Mahon, Moriarty Tribunals, Banks scandal, clerical sex abuse scandals, politicans buggin journalist phones, politicans seeking to influence judiciary, expenses scandal of politicans, Taoiseach telling us to commit suicide, Taoiseach clearly telling fairytales at a tribunal - one could go on and on. Fianna Fail are at the heart of it but when u look outside them one is not inspired. it would appear that there was certain sense of duty and responsibility in politics in the early days of the state and up to and including Lemass. all downhill since. the state is not yet 100 years old. I am not sure I can say that at this stage Ireland has learned how to govern itself properly. maybe the U.K. has its own problems but at least we would be part of a larger more self sufficient economy with a massive population and the clicks and cosey elite surely couldnt be as tight as they are here. rant over!!! This message has been edited - 06-apr-2010 @ 19:37
DAF (2,872 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 19:38	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
DAF (2,872 Posts)	What a load of horses** .Its not as if we thrived when we were part of the UK. I`ll tell you what though, we would have been much better off if the Romans decided to move further west about 2000 years ago.That would have ensured we would not have ended up in the current mess we find ourselves in. This message has been edited - 06-apr-2010 @ 19:39
The referee (6,331 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 19:41	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
The referee (6,331 Posts)	its a rant i have to admit. however, leave the Brits out of it for a second and answer one question honestly. do you think the politicans in this county are capable of governing this country in any kind of semi honourable, equitable and capable manner???? Originally posted by DAF: What a load of horses** .Its not as if we thrived when we were part of the UK. I`ll tell you what though, we would have been much better off if the Romans decided to move further west about 2000 years ago.That would have ensured we would not have ended up in the current mess we find ourselves in.
deiseach (5,099 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 20:04	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
deiseach (5,099 Posts)	Originally posted by The referee: do you think the politicans in this county are capable of governing this country in any kind of semi honourable, equitable and capable manner???? Yes. There isn`t a single country in the world where you couldn`t cherry-pick their foibles if you weanted to make out that it`s a basket case. For all our problems, Ireland is a successful polity.
DAF (2,872 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 20:10	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
DAF (2,872 Posts)	Originally posted by The referee: its a rant i have to admit. however, leave the Brits out of it for a second and answer one question honestly. do you think the politicans in this county are capable of governing this country in any kind of semi honourable, equitable and capable manner???? We have alot of useless politicians but so do other countries.We need to have a general election immediately and start with a new philosopy in Irish politics.The politicians have to be scruitinised better by the opposition parties (whoever they may be ) , ministers should have expertise in the department they are running i.e Eonomics Graduate for Finance Dept etc. and The Seanad who i assumed their job was to monitor proceedings in the Dail has to be modified so that they are elected by everybody in this country and they have to be given the task of scruitinising the Dail members and government.
The referee (6,331 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 20:27	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
The referee (6,331 Posts)	u are asking for an awful lot to happen there!!!??? Originally posted by DAF: We have alot of useless politicians but so do other countries.We need to have a general election immediately and start with a new philosopy in Irish politics.The politicians have to be scruitinised better by the opposition parties (whoever they may be ) , ministers should have expertise in the department they are running i.e Eonomics Graduate for Finance Dept etc. and The Seanad who i assumed their job was to monitor proceedings in the Dail has to be modified so that they are elected by everybody in this country and they have to be given the task of scruitinising the Dail members and government.
DAF (2,872 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 20:32	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
DAF (2,872 Posts)	Originally posted by The referee: u are asking for an awful lot to happen there!!!??? It would have to take a massive change in attitude but something has to change.We screwed up the Celtic Tiger years and the policies and behaviours of old have failed us and we need a change in attitude from our politicians.
eamonn (3,071 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 22:07	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
eamonn (3,071 Posts)	Britain`s performance in governing Ireland can be summed up in two words: `Great Famine`. Want two more words? Try `Penal laws`. Look at the state of the north, they can`t even get two groups of people to send their children to the same schools and then they wonder why they`re in the streets fighting in the summer evenings. Look at the state of their own country. Their ramshackle railway system is among the most overpriced and least punctual in Europe, their roads are like overbuilt car parks during commute time (ever tried travelling on a Friday in England? Forget it! ) . Their economy is in a mess and they`re just as far up the sh\|t creek as Ireland is. I`ll say one thing for the Brits though. At least they have a bit of pride and self confidence. When was the last time you saw one of them suggesting they be ruled by the Germans because they don`t have the confidence to govern themselves? When was the last time you saw them going into a World Cup with anything other than a belief that they can actually win (even though it`s not bloody likely ) ? When was the last time you saw them competing in the Olympics and thinking it`d be great if they just got a single medal? Sure they can be annoying when you hear them blowing about their wins and all their great achievements, but I say fair f\|_\|cks to them for at least having the balls to take the bull by the horns and have the confidence to face out into the world as potential winners, whereas we seem to think it`s better to go in as the underdog just to cover our asses when we do fail ("och sure we never really expected to win anyway" ) . We might not need to be ruled by them, but by god we can learn a thing or two from them.
long danny (4,403 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 22:24	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
long danny (4,403 Posts)	Originally posted by The referee: do you think the politicans in this county are capable of governing this country in any kind of semi honourable, equitable and capable manner???? In a word NO. I have often asked the question as to why some of our well-heeled senators could not do the job for the love of their country. After all that was the intention from the start. The opposition operate under the very same sense of entitlement. Robinson recently said she would take another 10% cut in her pension. Could she not forego the thing until she reaches retirement age, just like everyone else? Or maybe forego the state car? She is just one example of course.
dung (1,125 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 22:26	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
dung (1,125 Posts)	If Ireland had Holland, it would sink. If the Dutch had Ireland, they could feed the world. The Germans could teach us a thing or two about not littering the roads. It`s a disgrace around Limerick on the bypass and byroads, a thundering disgrace..
long danny (4,403 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 22:33	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
long danny (4,403 Posts)	Originally posted by dung: If Ireland had Holland, it would sink. If the Dutch had Ireland, they could feed the world. The Germans could teach us a thing or two about not littering the roads. It`s a disgrace around Limerick on the bypass and byroads, a thundering disgrace.. As I went home this afternoon I saw the bags of rubbish and different items dumped on the bypass. Council workers were there pulling radiators and old bikes from around the trees ffs. Scandalous. I don`t think we are a bad nation though. We have, however, consistently voted in useless people just because of who they were. It has often been said that you could stick a FF badge on a donkey and it would be elected in Limerick West.
Stool Pigeon (3,128 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 22:47	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Stool Pigeon (3,128 Posts)	The British have plenty of the same problems in the pipeline that Ireland is currently experiencing. They are just taking longer to arrive because it is a far bigger economy than Ireland. There is talk of public sector pay cuts (and public sector strikes as a result ) for example. It could get messy. Everyone here thinks the politicians are useless too. I`d wager its the same the world over, though the one big difference between the UK and Ireland is accountability, the media are vicious here and will not stop until they get their pound of flesh, and rightly so in most cases. The media in Ireland are in the pockets of the establishment and are far too soft on political scandals.
deiseach (5,099 Posts)	Posted: 06-Apr-2010 22:54	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
deiseach (5,099 Posts)	Originally posted by dung: If Ireland had Holland, it would sink. If the Dutch had Ireland, they could feed the world. The Germans could teach us a thing or two about not littering the roads. It`s a disgrace around Limerick on the bypass and byroads, a thundering disgrace.. If the Dutch had Ireland, they`d be Irish. As for the Germans, the best that can be said is that they are proof positive that a leopard can change its spots
upthebranner (825 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 01:40	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
upthebranner (825 Posts)	Britain is up the s**s but they havent admitted it yet as there is a general election on the way!!! As for a cosy elite, if you follow british politics over the last few months you will have seen it was as cosy there as it was with the best of them... So to answer the thread title, NO. This message has been edited - 07-apr-2010 @ 01:41
The Beautiful Game (385 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 09:44	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
The Beautiful Game (385 Posts)	Ireland certainly hasn`t thrived since independence. The country has been driven to the wall economically by Fianna Fail 3 times now. In the 50s, the late 70s/early 80s and right now. The country is the sort of crony capitalist kleptocracy, that you`d expect to find in South America. How many well connected bankers and developers who are bankrupt are going to get punished for breaking the law? In 1st world countries they`d be facing jail. The only saving grace in recent times has been the watchful eye of the EU. We have received billions in grants that had to be spent on development infrastructure.
Avondhu abu (1,215 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 09:48	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Avondhu abu (1,215 Posts)	I didn`t see Willie O Dea submit any expenses bill for a duck house or cleaning his moat. We have the government we have because we voted for them. And whether its FF or FG/Labour they all act the same in the end. Labour are well able to put their head in the trough as well. The Irish people don`t care as long as individually they are looked after. For example if we can get a county councillor or TD to get us planning permission for a site that planning experts are completely opposed we don`t care about anyone else. Its the same with every other stroke. And then we reward these politicians at election time.
pogger (777 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 09:56	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
pogger (777 Posts)	I just wonder how many generations it`s going to take to ditch the insecurity that some Irish have?Every society has corruption including Britain just look at the expenses scandal and the very recent lobbying rates some ministers were demanding.Take the good things from any system and learn from them.
The Beautiful Game (385 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 10:01	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
The Beautiful Game (385 Posts)	Originally posted by pogger: I just wonder how many generations it`s going to take to ditch the insecurity that some Irish have?Every society has corruption including Britain just look at the expenses scandal and the very recent lobbying rates some ministers were demanding.Take the good things from any system and learn from them. Britain has a much better record of actually punishing wrong do-ers. They say that the biggest mistake people like Fr Brendan Smyth and rogue banker Patrick Gallagher made were to commit some of their offences in the UK jurisdiction. Down here they wouldn`t have faced justice.
dolfos (1,192 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 10:03	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
dolfos (1,192 Posts)	A friend of mine is the son of Jamaican born parents and his dad is always going on about what a great country Jamiaca was under British rule and how they should hand power back to Westminster. Bad boy yardies from Clare might be a different story though.
JohnDillon (746 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 10:06	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
JohnDillon (746 Posts)	Originally posted by The Beautiful Game: Britain has a much better record of actually punishing wrong do-ers. They say that the biggest mistake people like Fr Brendan Smyth and rogue banker Patrick Gallagher made were to commit some of their offences in the UK jurisdiction. Down here they wouldn`t have faced justice. Down here? This message has been edited - 07-apr-2010 @ 10:07
DAF (2,872 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 10:29	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
DAF (2,872 Posts)	Originally posted by The Beautiful Game: Ireland certainly hasn`t thrived since independence. The country has been driven to the wall economically by Fianna Fail 3 times now. In the 50s, the late 70s/early 80s and right now. The country is the sort of crony capitalist kleptocracy, that you`d expect to find in South America. How many well connected bankers and developers who are bankrupt are going to get punished for breaking the law? In 1st world countries they`d be facing jail. The only saving grace in recent times has been the watchful eye of the EU. We have received billions in grants that had to be spent on development infrastructure. Most countries have had massive economic collapses.By using your criteria I could say that america cant rule itself because of the economic depressions of the 1930`s,1970`s and current day.Do people not realise that whatever goes up must come down and in that way the economy was bound to take a big dive at some stage regardless of the corruption in the banking sector. the problem with the Irish economy for the last 10 years was that everyone was comparatively rich which means there is something wrong as everybody cannot be rich and so the economy had to fall at some stage
limerick2k8 (98 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 10:33	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
limerick2k8 (98 Posts)	Originally posted by dolfos: A friend of mine is the son of Jamaican born parents and his dad is always going on about what a great country Jamiaca was under British rule and how they should hand power back to Westminster. Bad boy yardies from Clare might be a different story though. Sure Jamiaca was proboly a great country under British rule but what good did the brits do for us? Getin back to the original question, it really annoys me when people say we would have been better off with the brits. Anytime we face a bit of trouble, we always have the fools who say "we should have stayed in the Commenwealth, we should have kept British rule" Bulls**. We have a highly-educated population who is well able to govern itself. Ok the politicians havent covered themselves in glory in recent times but we are well able to deal with these probloms ourselves and the politicians will get whats due to them in the next general election. Im sick of the Irish attitude of constantly moaning and groaning if anything goes wrong in the country but wont get up and do something about it. Yes this country is well able to govern itself and we do not need a foreign state to rule us
Roberto Jordan (825 Posts)	Posted: 07-Apr-2010 11:55	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Roberto Jordan (825 Posts)	Leaving aside the most salient point that all nations have issues and periods of turmoil both political and economic and focussing specifically on the "what if?" of ireland under british rule......if Ireland were under British rule it would be a remot province in teh same way that much of wales , scotland and the north of england is.......and leaving aside the oil / gas industry in aberdeen, the south of england pays the way for teh rest of the UK due to the decline and death of former economic powerhouses based on commodities ( coal ) and international trade.....dont let urban regenreation in the heart of liverpool / manchester fool you, outside of the home counties you are heading into , by and large, a nation of well below northern european average income and levels of development/ social cohesion.....and th most frightening thing for this "what if" is that even when these areas were booming, Iurban Ireland in particualr under the brits was still by-and large a heel hole....the slums and tenements of dublin and the lanes of "angelas ashes" fame didnt crop up over night upon hand over of portobello barracks.........as stated above we need to cop on , grow a set and aceive real maturity....not te maturity of rugby in corke park faem...but maturity to say we hold noything against our nearest neighbours, in fact we get on well with them, but we are bloody glad good men did the business and got rid of them when we had the chance.....
Sleekit (76 Posts)	Posted: 16-May-2012 17:16	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
Sleekit (76 Posts)	Eire has historically had an unproductive economy. Breaking from the Union was suicidal.
John Collins (548 Posts)	Posted: 16-May-2012 20:06	Quote Edit Delete Report Post Post Reply
John Collins (548 Posts)	Sleekit I assure you it was not. For the 20 year from 1886 to 1906 incl an average of 570,000 people emigrated from this island annually. England always used this colony, and I stress that as history shows they never even attempted to treat us equally, as a cheap souce of food and poorly paid labour. We are well rid of them as the USA and several other countries also are.. The sun has set on their Empire and nach maith an rud e sin

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