Mobile Version
|
Register
|
Login
home
|
speak out!
|
content zone archives
|
"speak out!" archives
|
vote on it
|
soap opera
|
pub crawl
|
links
|
contact us
|
search
Follow us!
Speak Out! - Other Topics
Notices
"Speak Out!" Home
|
Topic Listing
|
Post New Topic
|
Post Reply
Yesterday's HOT topics
|
Today's HOT topics
| Jump to:
All Topics
First
1
2
Last
Select a page:
1
2
PageSize:
10
25
50
Page
1
of
2
Topic:
The Death of the Irish Village
Hud
(3,812 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 11:23
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
In 30 years time, we will wonder what happened to Toureen and the likes of it. The catchcall will be: what happened to the Post Offices? How did we allow the country pubs and the village pubs to die? Where are the local shops gone? How, in an era of growing social diffusion, did we permit the social glue of Irish life to fray further. When country people have to drive 15 miles for a stamp or a litre of milk, will the penny drop then?
When the churches close, and everyone lives in a monstrous house 2 miles from the nearest neighbour with 6 ensuite bedrooms servicing 1.4 children, perhaps then we will wonder what has become of this country.
We have never been a far-seeing nation, but it is more myopic we are becoming. The pictures of that tearful postmistress last night are emblematic of so much that is wrong in this world. That the West of Ireland is being wronged once more is no great shock.
LimerickNomad
(Power User)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 11:44
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Hud,
What would John Healy from up the road have made of it, I wonder?
salonika
(1,902 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 11:46
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by Hud:
In 30 years time, we will wonder what happened to Toureen and the likes of it. The catchcall will be: what happened to the Post Offices? How did we allow the country pubs and the village pubs to die? Where are the local shops gone? How, in an era of growing social diffusion, did we permit the social glue of Irish life to fray further. When country people have to drive 15 miles for a stamp or a litre of milk, will the penny drop then?
When the churches close, and everyone lives in a monstrous house 2 miles from the nearest neighbour with 6 ensuite bedrooms servicing 1.4 children, perhaps then we will wonder what has become of this country.
We have never been a far-seeing nation, but it is more myopic we are becoming. The pictures of that tearful postmistress last night are emblematic of so much that is wrong in this world. That the West of Ireland is being wronged once more is no great shock.
Hud,
I totally agree. But what`s worse is that there are those who rejoice in it.
I don`t know who wrote it but I picked up a book recently (book voucher to spend! ) called something like `The best is yet to come`. On the page it fell open, it talked about how we haven`t achieved sufficient scale outside of Dublin, and that therefore local monopolists are taking advantage off the residents.
F**k me. Local monopolists? Would that be Stacy Burkes sweetshop they`re talking about? Pat the local bakers buns with real cream. Roll on tescos, supervalue, and Superquinn so. All let`s turn town centres into specialist coffee shops and boutiques.
Now I know there`s a balance, and Pats eclairs had a sell by date that he wasn`t so strict on - but does every village now have to be a centra garage surrounded by 10 housing estates?
Is there any other vision in action in this country?
ABC123
(624 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 11:53
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Where I live (village ) , in the last three years the following have closed down.
2 out of 3 pubs
1 out of 2 shops (larger one is rumoured to be also going )
Post office
Garda station (manned for an hour every p.m. )
Petrol station
Instead, we have 100 new houses in the vicinity of the village.
chewfáile
(698 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 12:01
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by salonika:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hud:
Is there any other vision in action in this country?
No.
Developer driven development.
Aisling geal
(242 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 12:09
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by salonika:
Hud,
I totally agree. But what`s worse is that there are those who rejoice in it.
I don`t know who wrote it but I picked up a book recently (book voucher to spend! ) called something like `The best is yet to come`. On the page it fell open, it talked about how we haven`t achieved sufficient scale outside of Dublin, and that therefore local monopolists are taking advantage off the residents.
F**k me. Local monopolists? Would that be Stacy Burkes sweetshop they`re talking about? Pat the local bakers buns with real cream. Roll on tescos, supervalue, and Superquinn so. All let`s turn town centres into specialist coffee shops and boutiques.
Now I know there`s a balance, and Pats eclairs had a sell by date that he wasn`t so strict on - but does every village now have to be a centra garage surrounded by 10 housing estates?
Is there any other vision in action in this country?
The book is by Marc Coleman, got it in the Christmas socking and thought it was an excellent read. He argues against the sustainability of one off housing in rural areas and for the creation of larger metropolitan areas outside Dublin. High prices result in lack of critical mass and that the county is currently under populated and congestion is due to our flawed planning rather than overpopulation. He also argues that the only sensible economic way forward for Ireland is a united Ireland.
I suggest you read a couple more pages of the book before forming your opinion.
D-Day
(1,197 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 12:20
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
It`s hard to negotiate some of this, and I`ll give you a New Jersey perspective.
As Kevin Smith has said in his movies, there are no "town centers", instead there are shopping plaza`s located alongside state highways. This is a price paid when you want "national development", not local and sustainable development. Don`t get me wrong, I`m not entirely against improvement of roads, and it can happen without destroying local areas, but often it does damage local areas.
What was once the public space in towns, where people could meet and discuss issues, and visit local shops, has been totally privatized and stuck into a shopping mall. Irish are doing the same thing.
Local post shops have to adapt. I have suggested on this forum that they sell cannabis. That`s not happening, but maybe getting involved in DVD rentals, internet cafes, etc would ease the burden.
As for the "dialectics of Tesco", some points. Local mom and pop shops in the US aren`t alwasy so ideal. Often, they`ve been guilty of many things, including price fixing and racism. Walmart has many problems, but one thing I do like about it is that it does inadverdantly bring workers together for some issues, and gives workers the ability to organize. So, some workers can, and did, bring lawsuits. Couldn`t be done like that with a mom and pop shop.
I have no doubt local shops in Ireland have done similar things, but the difficult task is in assessing how much is lost and how much is gained. It`s not all or nothing. Broadly speaking, while it has brought some benefits, I think "national development" has come at a great expense here. It`s generally a very good issue to discuss, so I`m interested in what others have to say.
salonika
(1,902 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 12:24
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by Aisling geal:
I suggest you read a couple more pages of the book before forming your opinion.
I was referring to a specific point. The rest of the book might be excellent. The rest of the chapter might have been. But the point is that small towns and villages are being radically and irreversibly changed, as a consequence of economic imperatives, with little lament for the social consequences.
Like I said there is a balance, which we we`re nowhere near hitting.
jbrown
(421 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 12:47
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
The pubs closing is surely the governments fault? People selling up because the licence is worth €200K etc.
sid wallace
(Power User)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 12:53
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
I watched that piece on the news last night. The point that mrs w. made to me was that if all those people who were crowding in to the shop to bemoan it`s passing had been shopping there on a regular basis then surely the shop would not have had to close ( I know there is a bigger picture here with An Post Closing down rural post offices ) .
The bottom line is that most of these shops and pubs are not economically sustainable. Why is that? Well for the pubs it`s a mix of the drink driving,pricing and changing social habits.
And the shops - surely it is a case of the locals voting with their feet and the basis of price and convenience. How would you counter that? Change the planning laws to cast Ireland in stone as it was in the 1950s or give tax breaks to small shopkeepers?
Why would you do that. It`s clear that the locals taken as a whole don`t particularly need this outlets. Sure there are a handful of people in every locality for whom the local shop is very important either as a social outlet or because they have no means of tranport to a bigger outlet.
Things have changed. The village is no longer important. Lidl (jaysus I nearly crashed the car at the weekend when i saw one was opening in Thomastown ) is more important to people. Centra offers people what they they want - or they think they want.
I looked at the shelves in that shop on the news last night. So far as i could see the stock consisted of a few plastic bottles of cheap cola, Silk Cut, Benson and Hedges and Major and few light bulbs (all priced at 99c - non low energy ones at that ) . There may have been a few cartons of milk as well. Does that really offer a better deal to people than the local Centra, with it`s bigger range, bulk purchasing power or hot foods (or something equivalent to food ) . I wouldn`t have thought so.
Not all social change is bad. Sadly the country can`t be set up for the oul lad in a grey topcoat cycling in to collect 20 Carroll`s and a chat. These people are the victims of change, but I suspect the bulk of the locals are happy. As I say otherwise the shop wouldn`t be closing.
MoveCloserApart
(745 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 13:33
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
What these people are really victims of are bad planning. Once off housing in the country side is by and large the cause of these closures. Proper planning would allow development in and around existing villages and towns in a planned coherent way with planning given to allow for Shop, Schools, amenity areas, bus service, crèches etc to cater for these people who move in.
OK the shop may not be run by the family who ran the shop in the village for the last 60 years but if you have a decent population mass then there is need for a shop, pub etc
JoNinety
(Power User)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 13:55
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
It varies from village to village. My own homeplace is thriving. New shops and restaurants and sporting facilities, there`s even a few hurling teams after starting up. Nearly all the new houses being developed in the area are in the village. The only people building houses in the countryside are those building on a site they got from their parents.
Lady Penelope
(643 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 14:24
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Where big towns are concerned we are getting more and more like the UK with every town having the same chain shops. Does Ennis really need a Shopping centre with the same shops you will find in any centre in the country instead of Cusack Park. I seriously hope this plan does not get the go-ahead. Visitors to Ennis always remark about the select ion of small shops to be found. I always prefer to pay a bit more to buy locally rather than travel even to Ennis what with parking difficulties and traffic etc. Would never dream of shopping in boots, would always buy from an independant pharmacy. The Ennis book shop will always get my business as they were there no other book shop was available in town. The banks keep encouraging us to use internet banking to keep us out of the branches.They make you wait in line with maybe two cashiers and a queue out the door. They will turn around then and say people are not using the branch and close them down. I think tesco now deliver everywhere in rural Ireland contributing to the demise of your local supermarket/grocery shop.
Seamusin
(1,283 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 14:36
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by Lady Penelope:
Would never dream of shopping in boots, .
Quite right too!
There`s nothing more off-putting than a shop full of farmers and their wives, wearing an assortment of hobnailed boots and wellingtons!
jay sherman
(3,803 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 14:56
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by salonika:
I was referring to a specific point. The rest of the book might be excellent. The rest of the chapter might have been. But the point is that small towns and villages are being radically and irreversibly changed, as a consequence of economic imperatives, with little lament for the social consequences.
Like I said there is a balance, which we we`re nowhere near hitting.
i have not read marc colemans book but his stuff in the irish times was very right wing on economic issues.
tom jones
(9 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 15:28
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
The small village post office without the range of products that people want to buy is no longer a viable business and cannot be substained.However in many cases throughout the country the post office is now part of a larger shop which gives it the scale to survive.
I too will miss the small post office and the social activity it brings but times have changed and people have different requirements.
I notice the comments on Ennis and Cusack park and disagree that the development of Cusack park is a bad thing.If you were shopping in Coonagh Cross Tesco over Christmas it was like been it west Clare or Ennis.I think over 75% of their business is coming from Ennis and Clare,surely that is not good for the heart of Ennis longterm.
Ballintoy
(174 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 15:37
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Speaking for my own village. The population declined from 500 to 165. Back in the day we used to have a Hurling team now the numbers arn`t there. A lot of older people. Young ones packed up and left for work etc. Farming and fishing used to be the big industry that kept the village. Since that become unprofitable the village has lost its numbers. It once could be described as a community, now its more like a resort. With rich people (outsiders ) buying up holiday homes. The natives unable to buy property with soaring prices.
chewfáile
(698 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 15:53
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by sid wallace:
I watched that piece on the news last night. The point that mrs w. made to me was that if all those people who were crowding in to the shop to bemoan it`s passing had been shopping there on a regular basis then surely the shop would not have had to close ( I know there is a bigger picture here with An Post Closing down rural post offices ) .
The bottom line is that most of these shops and pubs are not economically sustainable. Why is that? Well for the pubs it`s a mix of the drink driving,pricing and changing social habits.
And the shops - surely it is a case of the locals voting with their feet and the basis of price and convenience. How would you counter that? Change the planning laws to cast Ireland in stone as it was in the 1950s or give tax breaks to small shopkeepers?
Why would you do that. It`s clear that the locals taken as a whole don`t particularly need this outlets. Sure there are a handful of people in every locality for whom the local shop is very important either as a social outlet or because they have no means of tranport to a bigger outlet.
Things have changed. The village is no longer important. Lidl (jaysus I nearly crashed the car at the weekend when i saw one was opening in Thomastown ) is more important to people. Centra offers people what they they want - or they think they want.
I looked at the shelves in that shop on the news last night. So far as i could see the stock consisted of a few plastic bottles of cheap cola, Silk Cut, Benson and Hedges and Major and few light bulbs (all priced at 99c - non low energy ones at that ) . There may have been a few cartons of milk as well. Does that really offer a better deal to people than the local Centra, with it`s bigger range, bulk purchasing power or hot foods (or something equivalent to food ) . I wouldn`t have thought so.
Not all social change is bad. Sadly the country can`t be set up for the oul lad in a grey topcoat cycling in to collect 20 Carroll`s and a chat. These people are the victims of change, but I suspect the bulk of the locals are happy. As I say otherwise the shop wouldn`t be closing.
Have to agree with the most of this. People want the chain shops, the brand names. There`s no way the smaller, more independent retailer can compete with this.
Those of us that bemoan the loss of the corner shop, the country pub or the rural post office rarely used them ourselves.
I think the planning issue is a separate thing really. The vast majority of development in this country has taken place on an ad-hoc basis with developers/councillors developing/re-zoning with zero coherent strategy or long-term plan. And one off housing is often at the behest of family members etc who avail of the cheaper land to build the house they want.
But you`re not going to convince people in their 3,000 square feet piles on a 1/4 acre that they`d be better off living in the nearby town or village in a much smaller living and recreational space. No chance. This is what they/we want.
SHANNONSIDER**
(8,499 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 15:55
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
The small town of Bruff is flying it in alot of ways, she now surely has more murals than they have on the Falls Road. Hugh O`Neill`s connection with the parish has has yet to be established, but his feat in sailing out of Lough Swilly in 1607 has been artistically feted like never before on the giant gable wall where Treacy`s Bar once stood. I puff out my chest at the sight of this beautiful representation of O`Neill`s noble retreat to the continent, while I bow humbly when passing the mural of triple Champion Hurdle winner Istabraq on Clancy`s pub gable.
Meanus is the same as it has been since around 1980 except there are no petrol pumps in the parish anymore.
Posh Spice
(1,383 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 16:14
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Fianna Fail__
people before politics, a lot done, more to do, now for the next steps!
Good enough for the eejits that voted for the bailey brothers
Aisling geal
(242 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 16:28
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by jay sherman:
i have not read marc colemans book but his stuff in the irish times was very right wing on economic issues.[/QUOTE]
He writes for the Sunday Independent and is economics editor of Newstalk. In fiscal matters I assume the term “very right wing” is meant as a derogatory one.
Perhaps you preferred the glorious socialist era in Irelands past and long for a return to high unemployment, high business taxes, high personal taxes, mass emigration and grand socialist schemes like Ballymun.
The Berlin wall fell in ’89 and with it the economic left argument.
Hud
(3,812 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 16:47
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Of course sid is right. The Post Office lives or dies by the number of transactions undergone in it. Every time someone pays a bill through the PO, that contributes directly to the survival of the PO. But do people care enough to do so? Not likely. They set up DDs, pay online using BillPay or whatever. Convenience is king. When the PO closes down due to lack of business, it is largely an economic imperative driven by lack of consumer interest. This we know. This we accept in an Ireland that has long foregone any right to be known as a nation or a country, and exults in its status as an "economy", whatever that is.
However, and to borrow from David McWilliams, we need to start to cost things differently in this country. If we accept the Centrafication of everything, the relentless commoditisation that renders us an outpost of the UK, what are we left with?
For example, is there not an argument to sustain the village shop on a green basis alone? Ditto the Post Office? But I guess if the economics of postal delivery in Ireland require every single piece of mail to be sent to a central repository before being resent to the regions, I mustn`t know much about economic models.
But this I do know. In 20 or 30 years time, there won`t be 50 country pubs in County Wexford. They are closing by the new time. If your idea of a nice place for a pint is the Bailey in Enniscorthy or the Millrace in Bunclody or Whitford House in Wexford Town, then this is the world for you. If you want character and definably Irish traits, forget it. But we make this mess of potage for ourselves. We will regret it is all I`m saying.
If Lidl is the future (and it is ) , then we`re doubleplusfcuked.
Seamusin
(1,283 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 17:24
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by Hud:
Of course sid is right. The Post Office lives or dies by the number of transactions undergone in it. Every time someone pays a bill through the PO, that contributes directly to the survival of the PO. But do people care enough to do so? Not likely. They set up DDs, pay online using BillPay or whatever. Convenience is king. When the PO closes down due to lack of business, it is largely an economic imperative driven by lack of consumer interest. This we know. This we accept in an Ireland that has long foregone any right to be known as a nation or a country, and exults in its status as an "economy", whatever that is.
However, and to borrow from David McWilliams, we need to start to cost things differently in this country. If we accept the Centrafication of everything, the relentless commoditisation that renders us an outpost of the UK, what are we left with?
For example, is there not an argument to sustain the village shop on a green basis alone? Ditto the Post Office? But I guess if the economics of postal delivery in Ireland require every single piece of mail to be sent to a central repository before being resent to the regions, I mustn`t know much about economic models.
But this I do know. In 20 or 30 years time, there won`t be 50 country pubs in County Wexford. They are closing by the new time. If your idea of a nice place for a pint is the Bailey in Enniscorthy or the Millrace in Bunclody or Whitford House in Wexford Town, then this is the world for you. If you want character and definably Irish traits, forget it. But we make this mess of potage for ourselves. We will regret it is all I`m saying.
If Lidl is the future (and it is ) , then we`re doubleplusfcuked.
Take a look at rural France- that`s our future. Villages without shops or pubs. They preserve their buildings beautifully of course- it`s only when you stop and look around that you realise that the shop fronts are for businesses that have not traded in 20 years. that the Church has one mass every second month (on a Tuesday ) . that every person you see on the street is over 60. that the bar opens for a hour in the evenings (sometimes ) and that all of this is in spite of a level of social services, public sector employment and subsidies unknown here. Then, 20 or more miles away, on the ring road of the nearest big town, the supermarkets and filling stations.
At least it`s attractive for tourists. Which we will not be able to say about rural Ireland now or in 20 years
treaty_exile
(829 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 19:14
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by Seamusin:
Take a look at rural France- that`s our future. Villages without shops or pubs. They preserve their buildings beautifully of course- it`s only when you stop and look around that you realise that the shop fronts are for businesses that have not traded in 20 years. that the Church has one mass every second month (on a Tuesday ) . that every person you see on the street is over 60. that the bar opens for a hour in the evenings (sometimes ) and that all of this is in spite of a level of social services, public sector employment and subsidies unknown here. Then, 20 or more miles away, on the ring road of the nearest big town, the supermarkets and filling stations.
At least it`s attractive for tourists. Which we will not be able to say about rural Ireland now or in 20 years
superb post.
most of this is, in my opinion, a consequence of electing the village idiot (and we`ve a fine tradition of it down home ) to the council, and sitting back to watch the planning lunacy unfold.
as for the sepia-toned lament of the rural post office, has anyone who works for a living tried to get to one recently?
open at 10, closed at 5?
at least the banks are honest about not wanting to deal with customers face to face.
post offices, rural shops and the local pub are all truants of the free market economy.
(and for an example of what happens when you start interfering with a free market, take a look at house prices since the great stamp duty debate )
a little more ingenuity on the part of the proprietors would enable the survival of at least some of these institutions.
I know my grandparents are quite happy with the choice on offer between lidl and aldi (yes, we`ve both, servicing a town of 5000 ) and still head to the local bakery because they never really liked the taste (or cut ) of a sliced pan. through cost reduction, advertising and identifying a niche market, the local baker is thriving, and long may it continue.
Glór na ngael
(1,198 Posts)
Posted:
10-Jan-2008 19:48
Quote
Edit
Delete
Report Post
Post Reply
Originally posted by LimerickNomad:
Hud,
What would John Healy from up the road have made of it, I wonder?
Indeed.
I found it ironic that that the Charlestown bypass was named after the great scribe. Surely Healy wouldn`t have wanted that area to become even more peripheral than it already is (though it`s very handy for those travelling from Dublin- takes 15 mins off the journey ) .
BTW, Toreen is a rare hotbed of hurling in Mayo, and usually provides Mayo with representation on underage provincial teams.
First
1
2
Last
Select a page:
1
2
Page
1
of
2
"Speak Out!" Home
|
Topic Listing
|
Post New Topic
|
Post Reply
‘We talk just like lions, but we sacrifice like lambs…’.
Whatever Happened to….
Anyone you know in your club?
Bin Tags Don't Make a County
‘Some a’ Dem’ Lads are only Dow-en for the Showers….’
Heavenly Hurling: How the Gods pass their time...
GAA Time and Real Time
Saint Patrick and the camogie princesses
Keats and Chapman at the Munster Final
Mass, the Mater, ‘The Dergvale’ and Mullingar…
More "Content Zone" Topics >>
More "Speak Out!" Topics >>